It's time to hire dedicated Tank an Healer devs!

[Liam_Harper]

Catering to the lowest common denominator is quite a bummer, especially with them squandering as interesting a gameplay system that 14 could have.

I think what makes it worse is catering only to the lowest common denominator. Making the game accessible or easy to learn is great, but then refusing to add any depth or reward for playing well because the casual player might feel bad they can't get the same result without putting any work in for it, is baffling.

If classes were only designed for hardcore players, people would understandably be upset. But when it's the other way around, those same people suddenly don't see what the problem is, because they got what they wanted.

[ItMe]

So I have a somewhat related question, but is there an MMO out there that does tank and healer classes RIGHT? Because in the beginning of ARR, Yoshi and Co. played a lot of WOW to see what made it addictive and fun and what features they could bring over to XIV. I'm just wondering if there's a game out there that really feels rewarding to play tank and healer classes.

First, define what is "right."
Everyone wants something different. What exactly do you want from a tank/healer class?
This is a nuanced issue and there is no single "right" way to do things, only games that do their thing well. Are you just looking for people to rec games where they've had more fun tanking or healing than they do here?

[Arkdra]

I agree with the basic premise of this thread that the tank and healer devs should play those roles, but just lol if you think that tanks have been better at any point than they are right now. I've played since 2.0 and you are flatly wrong and getting way up your own butt about the complexity that stance dancing added if you think tanks are worse now.

Except for dark knights. Dark knights I am sorry, you got completely destroyed.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I think what makes it worse is catering only to the lowest common denominator. Making the game accessible or easy to learn is great, but then refusing to add any depth or reward for playing well because the casual player might feel bad they can't get the same result without putting any work in for it, is baffling.

If classes were only designed for hardcore players, people would understandably be upset. But when it's the other way around, those same people suddenly don't see what the problem is, because they got what they wanted.

Yep precisely this. Yoshi P commented recently that they haven’t added any more dps complexity for healers because they don’t want new players to feel pressured to dps yet….why not just add those tools at a later level? If they aren’t going to learn to dps all the way back then, then they won’t learn later on either it seems, or should i say take the time to learn. He keeps wanting to cater to the players that are beyond lazy, and don’t even read their tooltips and spam cure 1 in endgame dungeons.

[Jeeqbit]

I saw an interview Zepla did with Yoshi P and I was stunned by out of touch he seemed to be with the healer meta of his own game and it left me wondering where exactly are the devs pulling this feedback from? Also shocking were some delusional comments on the video from players acting like healers DPSing in high-end content is some new, revolutionary concept. What game are they playing?

In JP people queue for savage and that means healers that spam cure would be likely to queue. If we take into account how sprouts queue for extremes and do them with mentors an argument could be made that it's a thing.

[Deceptus]

I looked over there and much like this thread, it gets bogged down in vague notions and reminiscing on the old days. After 6.0, how about putting some heads together to come up with something and give it a decent presentation that's more clear and to the point?

You mean this massively popular, highly upvoted thread doing just that?

[Melorie]

In JP people queue for savage and that means healers that spam cure would be likely to queue. If we take into account how sprouts queue for extremes and do them with mentors an argument could be made that it's a thing.

That doesn't really change his point, though? If you're playing as a DPS or a tank and choose to only use one tiny small part of your kit while doing savage or extremes, people would tell you that you can't do that. And you probably would fail your party by doing that. They would tell you that you have to learn your rotation, you have to use and plan your cooldowns. Why are we healers the class that it's okay to be dumbed-down to the point that there's no learning curve? No rewards for getting better, no optimization? Why should the devs give an entire kit to a class and balance it around people that want to use only spam Cure in savages (i'm not even talking about DPSing here, if you spam Cure you're literally not using 80% of your kit)? That makes no sense.
I would consider myself a casual player, and I don't really see why people defend this.
There's nothing wrong in failing and getting better, it's part of the game and besides in the optional content you won't really encounter failure that much regardless.

If you're queuing for savage, you also probably want to have a challenge, and you also want to get better at your class. Besides, afaik healer DPS is not counted when planning fights, so you can still only heal and clear it. But the better you get at the fight, the more down-time you'll have with nothing to do besides glare. And the encounter design made around bursts doesn't really help to solve this issue.

[CrimsonGunner]

i wonder how yoshi p would react if his beloved blm would be strip of umbral ice phase mana regeneration and replaced with a 2 stack mana free ability that will make his next spell cost 0 mp while being on a 60 second charge cd (keeping astral fire increased mp cost the same)
while having his fire 4 and ice 4 removed cause it seems the blm players find it hard so wait 2-3 seconds to cast oh and xenoglosy is removed from the game cause it also hard for them to maintain umbral ice/astral fire for 30 seconds and decide which skill to use so all he is left with is foul.
while also gets no new upgrades except 2 new stuff: scath now have a 2 charges and his triplecast and aetherial manipulation are removed for a 180 second speed buff that just makes him run faster to his ley lines oh and it has an extra 5% spell cast reduction inside his ley lines cause it needs something to be an interesting level 90 capstone skill. no replacement will be made for triple cast.
he will certainly "look" forward to EW and play his "Advanced" blm then now wont he and if he hates it he can always play smn with the pet for the hard casts XD.

which is basically how healers saw EW "improvements" to their jobs right now and yoshi p comment on sage

[Lauront]

What's wrong with the answer is that the meta is for healers to DPS. Yoshi P has said in the past they don't design encounters around healers DPSing yet that seems to fly in the face of actual encounter design and enrage mechanics. So here he is saying they were pulling in feedback from high-end players who were tired of healing all the time and wanted more opportunity to do DPS.

Meanwhile you look elsewhere, beyond what Yoshi P says, and you see feedback of people asking for more complex DPS rotations or more healing required. So again, where are the devs pulling their feedback from because it seems to be for a very different game. The one I'm playing is designed around highly scripted damage and ogcd healing between single button DPS spam.

It's like the Glare spam. Healers have so many instant tools to heal, that I can't really see why adding a bit more complexity to the dps rotation will mean less skilled players can't play the job. The healing is already overkill in most cases (to the point that it trivialises a lot of content outside of savage and in a bad way imo), so what is so hard about adding a few more buttons/CDs to the rotation? Hitting 1 button for the dps phases, which can be pretty long, is dull, no matter how you slice it.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I just want to say too, another example of them clearly not playing their own game. Yoshi P went on to say that Sage is the “dps healer.”Yet, it literally has the same exact number of dps skills as ast…. hello?