It's time to hire dedicated Tank an Healer devs!

[FrogDog]

So I have a somewhat related question, but is there an MMO out there that does tank and healer classes RIGHT? Because in the beginning of ARR, Yoshi and Co. played a lot of WOW to see what made it addictive and fun and what features they could bring over to XIV. I'm just wondering if there's a game out there that really feels rewarding to play tank and healer classes.

There aren't many to choose from anymore unfortunately. I can say around the time ARR came out the MMO market was hit with a wave of games that sought to do away with the trinity. The genre went from that being the fad to fly-by-night Chinese/Korean MMOs, which we seem to be in the tail end of these days. Meanwhile the MMO market declined and XIV endured probably because it's good enough in several things.

I can't speak to WoW's healing or tanking these days. From what I heard, mythic content requires a lot from a tank. I will say that for me, Wrath of the Lich King was where it was at with healing. It was a full-time role, semi chaotic and random, and restoration shaman had a good toolkit by that point. Overall the best healer I've played and the most rewarding was Operative in SWTOR.

[Stormfur]

I can't speak to WoW's healing or tanking these days. From what I heard, mythic content requires a lot from a tank. I will say that for me, Wrath of the Lich King was where it was at with healing. It was a full-time role, semi chaotic and random, and restoration shaman had a good toolkit by that point. Overall the best healer I've played and the most rewarding was Operative in SWTOR.

What did they do differently that FFXIV does not? (I've never played either of these games)

[Reiryuu]

What did they do differently that FFXIV does not? (I've never played either of these games)

Don't have to have played either. There are plenty of other games where healers have other things they can do including Everquest (Given, for a while raiding as a cleric is CH chain hell, but in group play options do exist and get broader as the expansions go on... not reduced like FFXIV). RIFT, FFXI, LOTR, are a few more MMOs I have experience with with more interesting healers. Hell even AD&D and Pathfinder healers have more options. I am, unfortunately, in no place to talk about tanks, though.

[ItMe]

So I have a somewhat related question, but is there an MMO out there that does tank and healer classes RIGHT? Because in the beginning of ARR, Yoshi and Co. played a lot of WOW to see what made it addictive and fun and what features they could bring over to XIV. I'm just wondering if there's a game out there that really feels rewarding to play tank and healer classes.

First, define what is "right."
Everyone wants something different. What exactly do you want from a tank/healer class?
This is a nuanced issue and there is no single "right" way to do things, only games that do their thing well. Are you just looking for people to rec games where they've had more fun tanking or healing than they do here?

[Melorie]

So I have a somewhat related question, but is there an MMO out there that does tank and healer classes RIGHT? Because in the beginning of ARR, Yoshi and Co. played a lot of WOW to see what made it addictive and fun and what features they could bring over to XIV. I'm just wondering if there's a game out there that really feels rewarding to play tank and healer classes.

It doesn't really make sense to compare other healers to FFXIV since FFXIV fight design is so... specific. That being said, I'm trying to remember the supports that I've played over the years in MMOs and mobas, and I'm struggling to think about one that was just healing healing healing and that's it. Each one of them had at least a side-thing going on that took their time - de-buffs & different types of buffs, cleasing de-buffs, managing mp or giving mp generation to party members, and most of them had some form of damage. I've never really encountered another class design that was about using a few of your powerful heals and then spamming one skill through your downtime in the way that FFXIV does. Which wouldn't be a problem if our downtime wasn't just pressing 1 button to DPS.

[kaynide]

It doesn't really make sense to compare other healers to FFXIV since FFXIV fight design is so... specific. That being said, I'm trying to remember the supports that I've played over the years in MMOs and mobas, and I'm struggling to think about one that was just healing healing healing and that's it. Each one of them had at least a side-thing going on that took their time - de-buffs & different types of buffs, cleasing de-buffs, managing mp or giving mp generation to party members, and most of them had some form of damage. I've never really encountered another class design that was about using a few of your powerful heals and then spamming one skill through your downtime in the way that FFXIV does. Which wouldn't be a problem if our downtime wasn't just pressing 1 button to DPS.

This really is the crux of it. Like, in FFXI the Whm had to manage several buffs like protect, stone skin, haste; and then work in DoTs and situational buffs like resisting fire. There wasn’t a lot of DPS, but there was a lot to keep track of which was pretty satisfying.

I get why people want that, and I personally would prefer that kind of complexity, but I also understand the more complicated it becomes the fewer people want to play it….which is the main thing the devs are watching.

I mean, in 2.0 they tried to encourage players to do cnj/Whm by offering a mount, or adventurer in need bonuses for roulette..but still there were long queues.
now, even as a dps I rarely wait more than 5 min- for devs that is mission accomplished.

[MiaShino]

now, even as a dps I rarely wait more than 5 min- for devs that is mission accomplished.

You are most lucky then!

[ItMe]

You are most lucky then!

Out of curiosity, what is your average queue time when you run DPS?

[Arkdra]

You are most lucky then!

It's content and job dependent. I almost never sit in an exdr queue as a melee dps longer than 5 minutes. Same for ADR, NRR and Trials. 5/6/7 and ldr though? Oof.

[Melorie]

I get why people want that, and I personally would prefer that kind of complexity, but I also understand the more complicated it becomes the fewer people want to play it….which is the main thing the devs are watching.

But they have to start somewhere. Dumbing down everything in the name of being ""accessible"" and ""easy"" and erasing the whole learning curve for the entire role is not way of doing this. Try new things (*truly* new things instead of empty promises such as mobs hitting more that haven't been fullfilled), adjust as needed. They didn't release a healer last expansion in order to work on them and the only thing they did was transform all the downtime of the three classes into the same thing (except maybe AST but still, I'm not going to comment what they did on ast because it was a stab in my heart). People that want to play this role deserves to have fun and feel like they're progressing and getting rewarded for playing better. Try new options, adjust as needed - we've been asking for anything for years. Why only DPS mains are allowed to have layers of depth and optimization?
And as it been said over and OVER again, complexity is not the same as being dynamic, rewarding or having depth. It can't be that hard to have a big brain solution that can be adjusted for entry-level players to the class that isn't "spam the same button forever the better you get through all the classes of this particular role". FFXIV devs have the potential to do better than this.

I've never even seen this concept of "let's turn a class into a braindead thing if you put a little bit of time into it just so everyone else can have fun except the ones that take it seriously" in any other game. I can't believe that the same people that made FFXIV what is today aren't capable of having any other solution for this.