SE FINALLY ANSWERED THE HEALERS COMMUNITY LONG ANSWERED QUESTION

[Gemina]

My interpretation about that response was he realized that the SCH’s section of the job actions trailer was poorly executed. Even if not much changes, they still want the job to look cool. An example would be something like MCH where very little is changing, but they still show off things like the Automaton Queen, Flamethrower, Auto Crossbow, Ricochet… i.e. things that look cool. SCH admittedly have very little interesting looking actions these days, but they could’ve at least used things like Fey Union, Scared Soil, or Summon Seraph. It also just didn’t even showcase the sprint buff well at all.

He seemed to be apologizing more that he didn’t oversee the trailer more meticulously to ensure that the SCH looked better and displayed their new capstone more effectively, but followed up by saying that SCH will still be fun to play, or at least that’s what they say.

It's water under the bridge at this point. We will have to wait until 7.0 to truly see how Yoshi decides to redeem this error for SCH. It's really far off, but I will be watching the SCH trailer VERY closely in 7.0, as will a lot of other people.

So what? It’s clear that there’s a fairly significant chunk of the player base that is upset. It’s bubbled to the surface so much so that influencers who don’t care at all about healing asked legitimate questions on behalf of their fans who do play healer. We’ve had back and forths before and you keep taking this stance of “us vs them” in regards to casual players and experienced players. We are not your enemy. We are not trying to ruin your casual experience.

The versus is actually the players who are upset, and the devs. The casuals get caught up in this crossfire. But as much as you want to express that you are not an enemy to the casual players, the devs are not your enemy. They are not trying to ruin your experience.

We need to break this down a little because there’s an important distinction between healers that try and struggle vs the section of healers that were demanding the role change so that healers never DPSed and would outright refuse to DPS in any content no matter the circumstances. The later were basically selfish players who wanted to play a different game with FFXIV’s aesthetic, because that’s not how FFIXIV is designed, and it will never be that way.

For the healers that would try and have a difficult time, I get that. There are changes that I think were really good in Stormblood to make their experience easier, such as removing Cleric Stance. I firmly believe Cleric Stance was terrible because it was a system based on punishment. If you don’t use it, your punished because you can’t DPS. When you do use it, if you mess up your timing, then your healing is punished and you could have the team killed because you forgot to press a button, or because your latency prevented it from being turned off.

I am well aware of the many 'types' of healers. Again, when it comes to encounter and job design, the devs have to indiscriminately take the whole playerbase into account.

I don’t understand how we’ve specifically talked about this before, yet you keep bringing up this skill floor debate. How can I make it any clearer that…

WE. DON’T. WANT. TO. RAISE. THE. SKILL. FLOOR.

At this point, I’m inclined to believe one of three things: either you don’t understand the difference between a skill floor and a skill ceiling, you’re misunderstanding the difference between then, or you’re just intentionally ignoring what we’ve been saying in order to paint a narrative. If it’s the former two, please tell me. I will be more than happy to find you a number of examples and explain in greater detail what they are to help you understand what we’re talking about.

If you feel I am not getting the point, you are free to elaborate. However, I am not saying you are trying to raise the skill floor. I am saying this is what happens by giving healers additional responsibility; and you are giving healers additional responsibility by adding more offensive skills. I am not sure how I can make that any more clear for you. Do you think the devs don't give healers more offensive skills out of pure spite? That they literally just want to punish healers for playing the job optimally, and pamper the casuals? Is that what you think? Before you answer that...

You’ll do more good for SCH leaving it alone and showing the team in numbers that SCH players are leaving the job than you will digging your heels in the sand and pouting about it. That said, I can’t tell you what to play as that’s each person’s individual decisions, but know that actions speak louder than words, especially when money is involved. And if Sage isn’t enough, continue to bring that up.

And there's that defeatist attitude again. You need to take a look around and see who is actually pouting here. You can bench your SCH or whichever healer you're not satisfied with, but understand the position it puts you in. It's not one of power. It isn't one where you're free to express your discontentment anymore, because you're not actually putting any time into playing the job in EW. All you can do is hope others jump off the cliff with you in protest. How confident are you in all these 'upset' healers joining in your boycott?

Regardless of your view, Yoshi is asking you to play the jobs, so why would you think doing the opposite is the best way to get to him?

[Sebazy]

You can bench your SCH or whichever healer you're not satisfied with, but understand the position it puts you in. It's not one of power. It isn't one where you're free to express your discontentment anymore, because you're not actually putting any time into playing the job in EW. All you can do is hope others jump off the cliff with you in protest. How confident are you in all these 'upset' healers joining in your boycott?

Regardless of your view, Yoshi is asking you to play the jobs, so why would you think doing the opposite is the best way to get to him?

The unfortunate fact is that it's been visibly demonstrated time and time again that at least as far as healers go, SE only really seem to pay attention to clear rates of various levels of content.

I've stated this before but incase it's been missed:

AST was absolutely nowhere in Gordias and rightfully got extensively buffed and adjusted to make it competitive. Any proper QA should have highlighted that it was just not equipped to deal with Gordias Savage.

It was handily the equal of WHM for Midas but Noct wasn't competitive with SCH. SE didn't seem to understand this, merely seeing that it's usage was still down resulting in a completely misguided series of buffs that saw it relegate WHM to the bench for Creator.

Meanwhile concerns had been raised over WHM's long term competitiveness vs SCH and AST throughout Heavensward. These were completely ignored. When patch 3.4 came along and AST made WHM functionally obsolete in Savage WHM still saw good usage in more casual content and thus nothing was changed despite all the complaining here and elsewhere. Patch 3.5 rolled out and people literally started excluding WHMs from PFs for extremes and sometimes even lower tier content. SE finally reacted by plugging some of WHM's issues with the SB kit.

Deltascape saw SCH have it's first turn on the bench, it promptly got a wide range of buffs, fixes and abilities. Again, any experienced healers on the QA team should have highlighted that this iteration of SCH was going to be dead on arrival (and should have flagged up AST's hefty QoL regression as well).

I wonder if a part of Yoshida's reasoning that healer's are currently 'fine' is that these days, healer clear rates are all fairly well balanced now. I don't think they are invested enough in the healer role to actually sit down and look first hand at how dire the gameplay is especially in casual content. Rather they are just getting random test teams from SE's pool, potentially with little experience of the game and going with them for feedback.

There's no denying that in the eyes of a sprout, healing in this game is exhilarating before you've started down that haunted optimisation path.

[Gemina]

The unfortunate fact is that it's been visibly demonstrated time and time again that at least as far as healers go, SE only really seem to pay attention to clear rates of various levels of content...

... I wonder if a part of Yoshida's reasoning that healer's are currently 'fine' is that these days, healer clear rates are all fairly well balanced now. I don't think they are invested enough in the healer role to actually sit down and look first hand at how dire the gameplay is especially in casual content. Rather they are just getting random test teams from SE's pool, potentially with little experience of the game and going with them for feedback.

While all of this is valid from an observational standpoint, the reasoning is still inductive. It's based on the impression that everyone is dissatisfied with the current state of healers. It should go without saying that not all players are dissatisfied with the healer status quo. I wouldn't take that to mean that I don't believe there's a disconnect, but I also wouldn't be so quick to believe that having a healer oriented person on this design team would magically 'fix' things.

I can't even pretend to know Yoshida's reasoning behind any of his decisions. I can only try to make sense of them in my own mind. I do know that he values the views and experiences of his dev team, and the playerbase both. I know he can't greenlight every suggestion tossed at him, and has to make educated and informed decisions when it comes to what makes it into game as each one becomes a huge commitment on his part. Take that into mind when it comes to current healer design, and the decision to go down this road that was made years ago, as well as the health of this game long term.

As you pointed out in the portion of your post I omitted, there were a lot of problems back in the days of Gordias, Midas, even into Deltascape. It really was a cluster of nonsense, and the leap frogging of healers from patch to patch was among the most cumbersome. Those days are gone now though for the most part now, so why wouldn't they think it's fine? They don't think it's "fine" though. That's a bad business motto to have. Nevertheless that giant storm that was present back then has dissipated.

The current, and I stress the very delicate balance being maintained was costly for all three roles. As observant as you have expressed to be, you should be well aware that Tanks and even DPS jobs all took a huge hit in terms of versatility and complexity. Things like tank stance swapping and enmity shedders were big parts of the gameplay of those two roles respectively, and many were displeased that they just nuked it. I wouldn't think for even one moment that Yoshida is not aware of the negative response to this from the game's more advanced players. FFXIV could not have the success it does if he was that level of disconnected from the players and dev team.

My own observations is that Yoshi understands that he's human, and that moving away from 3.x gameplay was costly but necessary. He is aware of the discontent, and I'm sure he's not happy about it. I also believe he's aware that these players feel punished, and punishing those you care for can be one of the most painful experiences anyone can go through. I see this written all over his face when he knows he has to deliver disappointing news.

The man is not infallible. This team has made a TON of mistakes along the way. Yoshi knows this too. It's been a learning process, and they are still learning and adapting on their end as well. This should be seen as huge positive on everyone's behalf.

[Sebazy]

That's pretty fair reasoning and I can't really argue with it. At this stage I'm slightly jealous of your optimism in Yoshida's team tbh

As you pointed out in the portion of your post I omitted, there were a lot of problems back in the days of Gordias, Midas, even into Deltascape. It really was a cluster of nonsense, and the leap frogging of healers from patch to patch was among the most cumbersome. Those days are gone now though for the most part now, so why wouldn't they think it's fine? They don't think it's "fine" though. That's a bad business motto to have. Nevertheless that giant storm that was present back then has dissipated.

I will interject here though.

I think it's actually the opposite. They absolutely think the current status quo is fine and at least from where I'm sitting, it looks like they intend to continue treading water with the same overall grand formula that they've had since the end of Creator because it's still successful.

Dumbing down the overall game doesn't please us as the vocal minority but it seems to be doing wonders for the overall player base especially as we are supposed to be in the pre patch blues stage yet it's routine to see server queues.

As for his own opinions, it's frustrating that he has been proven wrong and has had to back down on his own statements right from 2.0 with Warriors. But they still strike me as having an air of arrogance to their views on the healer roles that seems to be blinding them to the core of the issue that's causing all of this. He might have mildly touched on healer DPS vs healing, but he still doesn't seem to understand that those aren't actually the problem here.

It's the fact that so much of our gameplay time is all piled up on a single button. Until he understands and acknowledges that, I can't see anything changing.

[Gemina]

It's the fact that so much of our gameplay time is all piled up on a single button. Until he understands and acknowledges that, I can't see anything changing.

And you would be very perceptive in this regard; as far as anything changing, and that's because this expectation isn't reasonable. Even back in HW, healers still arrived at ST spam when there was nothing else to do. So are you suggesting that it should take longer to arrive there? If so, that is where more complexity is added.

The complexity is approached from more angles than just player skill, and I am not sure if this is realized. However, player skill is always a factor and variance in player skill levels is going to fluctuate the numbers all over the place. Now this is just guesswork, but I would think that the more stable these numbers are (talking about encounter design), the easier it becomes for this team to create encounters in a timely manner. Over time from early raiding to now, this team has had to learn how to be more efficient as demand has also increased along with the amount of subscribers, and simplification is one of those methods to achieve that. They do this for the same exact same reason why you use a vacuum to clean your carpet.

So yeah, he completely understands that your damage has been consolidated into a single button. It was deliberate to make things easier for both them and you, and I would also wager that this was done in order to churn out more content where our healing requirements do go up. However, I will also point out again that looking in the same direction the devs are going is a safer way to create expectation opposed to looking back over your shoulder. As an example they are rewarding jobs with more and more finishers for executing their buttons correctly, and I think this is something they can do for healers as well. They already kind of do this with Misery, and it looks like AST new card mech is all about that as well. When I see things like this, it makes me hopeful that they will start to look at SCHs gauge too.

I don't know what else to say. I guess, hang in there? I can't make any promises, and I don't have a crystal ball. I have been semi accurate with some predictions, and what my gut tells me is that those DPS glory days of SCH are gone for good, but this doesn't mean doom. Healers can be made to be very fun and exhilarating, but all minds have to be open on how to get there on a wider spectrum. This include dev and player both.

[Sebazy]

And you would be very perceptive in this regard; as far as anything changing, and that's because this expectation isn't reasonable. Even back in HW, healers still arrived at ST spam when there was nothing else to do. So are you suggesting that it should take longer to arrive there? If so, that is where more complexity is added.

That's not a fair or valid statement in my humble opinion, sorry =(

It was surprisingly rare for healers to hit a point where they had nothing to do but Stone/Ruin spam back in HW. And that wasn't just a Savage thing, trials saw a good spread of ability usage. Even 24 man wasn't anything like as bad as what we have now.

This isn't rose tinted glasses speaking, and to confirm that, here's some cold hard charts:

Thordan EX - SCH
Zurvan EX - AST
Caliofisteri Weeping City 24 - AST
Here's a Gordias Faust run where I DPS enough to go purple - WHM
Brute Justice Savage - WHM

The worst case back then really was Manipulator for WHM - I'll put equal parts blame for this on me being super HPS centric coupled with a SCH who was very very DPS minded and WHM's rather sketchy MP economy not really doing to well in this fight, especially with the whole suicide Strat thing forcing us to time Shroud.

Even so, compare that to the most healing intensive Savage turn for years. E12S pt1. It's just depressing =/

And this is before we factor in some of HW's gimmicks such as the A5S Elixirs or the Gobwalkers in A2S. This was perfect work to offload onto the healers especially once the content was on farm. Lastly, lets also not forget Virus and Eye for an Eye, another facet of healers that's gone AWOL.

Over time from early raiding to now, this team has had to learn how to be more efficient as demand has also increased along with the amount of subscribers, and simplification is one of those methods to achieve that. They do this for the same exact same reason why you use a vacuum to clean your carpet.

Eh, the schedule has remained more or less the same. Yoshida's team aren't pumping out encounters any faster than they ever have and I'm not really sure it's fair to say that they are harder either. The dances have certainly gotten more elaborate and longer but they just lack that spark that made Savage live up to it's name in the past. Sudo tuned these fights to a different level, one that SE's team just hasn't managed to repeat since. Even if you put the perceived difficulty aside in the mind that progression raiders have gotten better, I'd argue that fights were frequently more inventive with offering up distractions that were ideally suited for the healers to cover once content was on farm. I've got so many fond memories, like near enough solo healing A5S whilst also handling elixir and bomb duty etc, good times were had even if my active rate suffered for it.

So yeah, he completely understands that your damage has been consolidated into a single button. It was deliberate to make things easier for both them and you, and I would also wager that this was done in order to churn out more content where our healing requirements do go up.

I just don't get the link between a single dot/nuke damage kit and enabling the designers to churn out content that pushes our healing kit harder. The problem has nothing to do with Glare/Dia and everything to do with the fact that SE just can't figure out how to throw more damage at us. E12S pt1, already throws back to back AoEs that are individually one shotting healers during prog without mitigation. They've designed themselves into a corner with our (heavily overpowered relative to our HP pool) kits that allow us to erase incoming AoE damage like it never happened up until a certain point before we have to fall back to GCD healing and very rapidly run out of MP. Do you think they envisioned me being able to solo heal through E4S Almagests with no pre mitigation on WHM with Thin Air/DS/Cure III bombs?

They already kind of do this with Misery, and it looks like AST new card mech is all about that as well. When I see things like this, it makes me hopeful that they will start to look at SCHs gauge too.

If Misery was a deliberate and methodical refund, why has it been allowed to lose value vs Glare III? As far as AST goes, you mean Astrodyne? That's just a by product of losing Sleeve Draw. Keeping the old Divination with the Endwalker sign generation rate would have been pretty rough. Offloading the signs onto a self only buff that's going to be a pain to align in raid was the lazy route IMHO.

I don't know what else to say. I guess, hang in there? I can't make any promises, and I don't have a crystal ball. I have been semi accurate with some predictions, and what my gut tells me is that those DPS glory days of SCH are gone for good, but this doesn't mean doom. Healers can be made to be very fun and exhilarating, but all minds have to be open on how to get there on a wider spectrum. This include dev and player both.

Apologies if it sounds like I'm cutting down some of your arguments, it's a fun debate and it's nice to be able to do as such in a though provoking and reasonable manner++

I too think that healer's can indeed be made to function in a manner that's both more entertaining and intellectually taxing. But I'm firmly of the opinion that SE are going to need some help getting there, hopefully by way of recruiting a battle system designer that's got a keen interest in healing!

[AFuzzyMu11in]

And you would be very perceptive in this regard; as far as anything changing, and that's because this expectation isn't reasonable. Even back in HW, healers still arrived at ST spam when there was nothing else to do. So are you suggesting that it should take longer to arrive there? If so, that is where more complexity is added.

The complexity is approached from more angles than just player skill, and I am not sure if this is realized. However, player skill is always a factor and variance in player skill levels is going to fluctuate the numbers all over the place. Now this is just guesswork, but I would think that the more stable these numbers are (talking about encounter design), the easier it becomes for this team to create encounters in a timely manner. Over time from early raiding to now, this team has had to learn how to be more efficient as demand has also increased along with the amount of subscribers, and simplification is one of those methods to achieve that. They do this for the same exact same reason why you use a vacuum to clean your carpet.

So yeah, he completely understands that your damage has been consolidated into a single button. It was deliberate to make things easier for both them and you, and I would also wager that this was done in order to churn out more content where our healing requirements do go up. However, I will also point out again that looking in the same direction the devs are going is a safer way to create expectation opposed to looking back over your shoulder. As an example they are rewarding jobs with more and more finishers for executing their buttons correctly, and I think this is something they can do for healers as well. They already kind of do this with Misery, and it looks like AST new card mech is all about that as well. When I see things like this, it makes me hopeful that they will start to look at SCHs gauge too.

I don't know what else to say. I guess, hang in there? I can't make any promises, and I don't have a crystal ball. I have been semi accurate with some predictions, and what my gut tells me is that those DPS glory days of SCH are gone for good, but this doesn't mean doom. Healers can be made to be very fun and exhilarating, but all minds have to be open on how to get there on a wider spectrum. This include dev and player both.

Once again fantastic post gem.

[Truen]

Once again fantastic post gem.

Yeah, only we've been listening to things like that for 2 years and none of she's talking about ever materializes. We're still bored to tears with a healing kit that's too powerful and a dps spell that's boring as Hell. Fact is, compared to what we've seen in the past, the SCH sucks and it's Yoshi's fault.

[CrimsonGunner]

Regardless of your view, Yoshi is asking you to play the jobs, so why would you think doing the opposite is the best way to get to him?

cause doing that stuff got healers nothing? cause he basically said he heard the complains and will do nothing ?

those are pretty good reasons not to listen at this point tbh from an individual view point. you are trying to sound optimistic but in reality that method has been tried and tried again has it not?
healers asked that on higher content, stuff will get better and hit more frequently to use more heals, it was not heard.
they asked that the kit will be simple but with depth and meaning, no respond and now it was said no.
healers asked small QoL fixes for current expansion at least so the jobs wont be as cluncky, sch mains never got their wish, Ast mains needed to wait until 5.1/5.2 to get mana filler in draw when it was a simple hotfix.

can you really say that is the best way to make a message and it will be heard at this point?

[Gemina]

cause doing that stuff got healers nothing? cause he basically said he heard the complains and will do nothing ?

those are pretty good reasons not to listen at this point tbh from an individual view point. you are trying to sound optimistic but in reality that method has been tried and tried again has it not?
healers asked that on higher content, stuff will get better and hit more frequently to use more heals, it was not heard.
they asked that the kit will be simple but with depth and meaning, no respond and now it was said no.
healers asked small QoL fixes for current expansion at least so the jobs wont be as cluncky, sch mains never got their wish, Ast mains needed to wait until 5.1/5.2 to get mana filler in draw when it was a simple hotfix.

can you really say that is the best way to make a message and it will be heard at this point?

What I'm saying is what message do you want to send that hasn't already been heard? Not giving you what you want doesn't mean your message has not got across. Other than that, my last post goes into great detail about why you also shouldn't feel ignored.

Now don't take that mean that I think, or the team thinks everything is "fine". I think that is a HUGE misconception being tossed around. But I also think that a lot of frustration stems from a problem some players have that are not shared by the dev team, or the dev team has made the decision to go another direction much to the chagrin of some of the playerbase.

I am optimistic about healer changes in the future, but in a way that lines up with the direction the team has decided to go. This is what allowed me to foresee just about everything that has changed about AST going into EW, and I am very excited to play that job. That is coming from someone who outright HATED it and everything about it in late HW into SB. I am not going to create hope and expectation based on principles the dev team has abandoned, and I bring up AST because it was a job that I very much wanted to enjoy since its inception. While I still have to actually play it in EW, it's adaptation and reasonable expectation has lead to this point in time.

IOW, if you keep asking for something like more DoTs to return to SCH; I won't say it will never happen, but you've kind of set yourself up for disappointment when it doesn't. I would also say that it makes it more difficult for issues that they will be willing to look at to be heard while the ones that they won't are echoed so loudly. I'm not spouting that as fact, just saying that for me personally from a management perspective, it can be difficult to become aware there's an issue with the copy machine when everyone is complaining that the vending machine keeps ripping people off.