A request for Endwalker Dungeons (No more Undertuned)

[ssunny2008]

While I do understand the desire for more challenging, lower player count content - regular roulette (despite being called expert roulette) will not be the place it is added. I know people don't like when other MMOs are referenced, but the early heroic dungeons in World of Warcraft's cataclysm expansion tried to bring back more challenging mechanics to its dungeon content and what happened was a tier of content that couldn't be completed by casuals, players sitting in queues for 40 minutes for a one-in-five chance of being able to clear the assigned dungeon.

The developer team has said in the past that they want dungeon content to be easily accessible to all the player base, which is a big part of why it isn't particularly challenging. The average skill level of players is surprisingly low.

Away from a bunch of lazy players, it´s up to the game to bring a decent learning curve into the game. If a player don´t even try, why should he be able to clear something?
I would actually prefer to have 40 minutes waiting time for something challenging and fun, than running 2-3 instances braindead, double-lefthanded and blind down for NOTHING but tombstones and XP for classes i never touch again.

MMO´s have always been a "playing together" field. For example i´ve a 99% success-rate in mentor-roulette and i never left any extreme fight. I teached newcomers, i played with them and made up some strategies to bypass issues. That´s how any content should work. Ppl interact with each other, explain stuff and even wipe together to learn from their mistakes and to try new strategies. In FF14 it´s more "pull -> gg -> escape / outtahere" in 98% of all content.

Ppl just need to stop to be that selfish like "If i can´t do it alone it´s bs." or such instaquits and mimimi about everything.

It's because of your gear. It's designed for item level 470 and it's easy to be 510-530 now. Consider that at the time of release, the max item level was just increasing from 500 to 530 so casual players that don't understand tomestones were still in 475 gear from the previous dungeon.

The leveling dungeons will most likely hurt a lot like the previous ones because of gear sync but I expect the max level ones will be easy like the one you mentioned because of the sync not being tight.

The fun I get out of them is in completing them faster and skipping even more of the mechanics.

Comes a bit late but, even the "min level" runs are a joke. A healer have to heal a bit more, atleast he needs to start to heal. Tanks will pull 2-3 adds less if they really struggle that hard. That´s it. Mechanics won´t change, DPS checks are not a thing. Just lately i had tank with ~level 30 gear in Aurum Vale. It took a while, but nothing changed overall. Everything beside savage / ultimate is baby-mode.
Normal dungeons should get doubled in their difficulty. HC dungeons and normal raids should atleast be on extreme difficulty. That would be something.

[DPZ2]

You understand that people can still enjoy a game, but wish it was better?(in their opinion of course)

Sure. But to be so entirely negative about gameplay, not to mention the attitude toward the majority of players, really had me doubting that the poster was having any fun. At. All.

Their subsequent response didn't help that doubt. [Bold face is my own] "The whole game-market is infested by lazy ppl, who just want want want...., but actually have no clue about gaming and can´t even differentiate between good or bad games and have no clue how to play a game. They look at some graphics and animations, j... on halfnaked characters, maybe staying afk in limsa all day long to present some glam and uwu emojis...
Yes, everyone should have a chance to have fun at a game. But everyone could even have fun in a game with a little bit efford from themselves. That some ppl pay for a bit bling bling and fate grind won´t go in my mind. But if anyone wants some more depth in content and gameplay "Määääh don´t touch my braindead-mode!!!!" It´s absolutely disgusting in which direction the whole gaming industry went because of this bs."

[Deliciou5]

Sure. But to be so entirely negative about gameplay, not to mention the attitude toward the majority of players, really had me doubting that the poster was having any fun. At. All.

Their subsequent response didn't help that doubt. [Bold face is my own] "The whole game-market is infested by lazy ppl, who just want want want...., but actually have no clue about gaming and can´t even differentiate between good or bad games and have no clue how to play a game. They look at some graphics and animations, j... on halfnaked characters, maybe staying afk in limsa all day long to present some glam and uwu emojis...
Yes, everyone should have a chance to have fun at a game. But everyone could even have fun in a game with a little bit efford from themselves. That some ppl pay for a bit bling bling and fate grind won´t go in my mind. But if anyone wants some more depth in content and gameplay "Määääh don´t touch my braindead-mode!!!!" It´s absolutely disgusting in which direction the whole gaming industry went because of this bs."

What they are saying i agree with, games in the industry are being dumbed down so the lowest common denominator so anyone can enjoy it no matter how terrible they are at the game, they can lament how game quality is dropping while also still appreciating parts of the game.

Greed is ruining the integrity of games throughout the industry, in this case SE wants to dumb down the difficulty so just anyone can play it even if it costs players any semblance of accomplishment or fun.

The only way you can come to your conclusion is if you have no respect for their intelligence since you would assume they would play a game they weren't having fun with.

There is no nuance to your assumptions, you see it as all or nothing. Meaning they can't like certain parts of the game and not like others.

What a terrible bullying mindset. You MUST be trolling.

[DPZ2]

"It´s absolutely disgusting in which direction the whole gaming industry went because of this bs."

The gaming industry's direction is directly due to the economics of publishing games. When something sells, it is held up as an example of how things should be. And, unfortunately for some of the more experienced gamers, "how things should be" isn't enough.

The option is always there to pursue the one or two game publishers who do provide more depth in content and gameplay. If they exist. Entertainment publishers do not go out of their way to make content exceedingly difficult because difficult doesn't pay the bills. Go ask Carbine Studios about Wildstar and their promise to bring back the 'hardcore' in hardcore MMOs- and their lack of business acumen, of course.

Players continue to play MMOs because ... they're invested. In the story. In the World. In their friendships. In their time and effort and the rewards that come from playing for what seems eternity. FFXI is still up-and-running. EQ and EQ2 are still around. Heck, even Ultima Online still has a game presence. Why? Because however small the player base, someone always considers these MMOs to be Home.

Get frustrated. Sure.

Vent about it. Sure.

Start to diss on players whose capability you don't like because you think they hold your MMO hostage from better content. Not cool.

Try to figure out exactly Why you still play this game and go with that.

[DPZ2]

What a terrible bullying mindset. You MUST be trolling.

Pfui.

You speak of bullying, yet bandy the word "troll" like a cudgel. Your assumption is that I have no respect for another's intelligence. I want to find out why they play the game, rather than looking for something more in line with their expressed desires. The question was relevant. The response, unfortunately, from them ... was the tirade that you quoted, which doesn't answer the question.

I was interested in an actual answer from the poster. They have so far not given one.

I well know the reasons that people play MMOs, and why they might want to continue playing even though they don't like something major about the game. As I said in a subsequent post:

"Players continue to play MMOs because ... they're invested. "

Is asking how they're invested now considered "bullying"?

[Deliciou5]

"It´s absolutely disgusting in which direction the whole gaming industry went because of this bs."

The gaming industry's direction is directly due to the economics of publishing games. When something sells, it is held up as an example of how things should be. And, unfortunately for some of the more experienced gamers, "how things should be" isn't enough.

The option is always there to pursue the one or two game publishers who do provide more depth in content and gameplay. If they exist. Entertainment publishers do not go out of their way to make content exceedingly difficult because difficult doesn't pay the bills. Go ask Carbine Studios about Wildstar and their promise to bring back the 'hardcore' in hardcore MMOs- and their lack of business acumen, of course.

Players continue to play MMOs because ... they're invested. In the story. In the World. In their friendships. In their time and effort and the rewards that come from playing for what seems eternity. FFXI is still up-and-running. EQ and EQ2 are still around. Heck, even Ultima Online still has a game presence. Why? Because however small the player base, someone always considers these MMOs to be Home.

Get frustrated. Sure.

Vent about it. Sure.

Start to diss on players whose capability you don't like because you think they hold your MMO hostage from better content. Not cool.

Try to figure out exactly Why you still play this game and go with that.

Once again, people can genuinely be mad that square enix is watering down their game for profits since you don't need to do mechanics in a lot fights to order to do beat them while also still enjoying parts of the game like story,music,aesthethic,housing system,etc..

Your assumptions just make you look like a clown.

Wildstar also failed for a number reasons that had nothing to do with difficulty, its end game systems (i.e., Paths)felt shallow and boring and seemed that it was more designed by committee than the result of a focused vision.

It's story was done with little chat blurbs with next to no character development. It's story was shallow and unfulfilling with cutscenes that didn't even equal to half of other games like FFXIV would have.

Also it suffered from "just enough content” syndrome that games like fallout 76 suffer from which means players would already be sick of the game and they would get scraps in updates.

The game was a complete mess in terms of design and seemed like a hardcore mmo designed by in parts by different visions of what the game should be rather than a complete vision from one director.

It's a complete misconception that wildstar failed because it was a "hardcore mmo", it failed because it was a MESS that wasn't worth the price tag of a full on mmo, it should have been free to play from the start.

Pfui.

You speak of bullying, yet bandy the word "troll" like a cudgel. Your assumption is that I have no respect for another's intelligence. I want to find out why they play the game, rather than looking for something more in line with their expressed desires. The question was relevant. The response, unfortunately, from them ... was the tirade that you quoted, which doesn't answer the question.

I was interested in an actual answer from the poster. They have so far not given one.

I well know the reasons that people play MMOs, and why they might want to continue playing even though they don't like something major about the game. As I said in a subsequent post:

"Players continue to play MMOs because ... they're invested. "

Is asking how they're invested now considered "bullying"?

You seem to be intent on bullying her, thats why i called you a troll and a clown since you absolutely can't be serious about any of the points you are making.

By saying things like "you don't enjoy the game at all since you want parts of it to be better" is genuinely a bad faith argument that lacks any logic.

So i called you out..... so now i am the bully?

Well even if i was(which i don't believe) i wouldn't feel bad about bullying a bully.

You genuinely make arguments that lack any substance and are based on assumption, also like all people who argue in bad faith you hide behind "authority".

Your claims as a mmo veteran somehow gives you any kind of special insight as if it had anything to do making your point stronger which it doesn't.

I have just as much experience in playing all these mmos as you do if not more, do i swing it around like a bad faith cudgel that drips with the blood of logical fallacy(Appeal to authority)?

No i do not.

[ssunny2008]

The option is always there to pursue the one or two game publishers who do provide more depth in content and gameplay. If they exist. Entertainment publishers do not go out of their way to make content exceedingly difficult because difficult doesn't pay the bills. Go ask Carbine Studios about Wildstar and their promise to bring back the 'hardcore' in hardcore MMOs- and their lack of business acumen, of course.

As Del said, Wildstar had different issues than being "too difficult". It already began with the artstyle, which was definately not for everyone and lasted in a mess of overall design flaws. Being difficult was if anything just a side-reason.

And there are enough titles out there "which pay bills". Just have a look at the whole Dark Souls series and Sekiro. Ppl love such games, but there are still a bunch of players who´re like "ähhh too hard, pls nerf". How about practice? In kind of DS you can even use different sets and level up meanwhile Sekiro is indeed skill and reaction depended.
I do even know a bunch of casuals who played this games and finished them in their way. It took longer, but they practiced, learned and beat them.

Players continue to play MMOs because ... they're invested. In the story. In the World. In their friendships. In their time and effort and the rewards that come from playing for what seems eternity. FFXI is still up-and-running. EQ and EQ2 are still around. Heck, even Ultima Online still has a game presence. Why? Because however small the player base, someone always considers these MMOs to be Home.

You might be invested in the story, the world and friendships. Other might have similar reasons too. But would it be a matter of difficulty to enjoy the 3 things? I guess not.

My best online-friendships have never been a result of braindead rundowns. They have become a thing, because we wiped together to difficulty encounters. We talked and interacted with each other and finally beat a sick boss. We were proud on ourthelves and moved on the way together. Not any dungeon in this game brings such a "WE" feeling to me or my friends. Not even savage, which is far more difficult, has it since the mechanics are more like "someone failed = wipe".
There are no real possibilities to play around something, to try new strategies, nothing. It´s either a rundown or a hope that everyone stay on a marker.

The world isn´t that great too. What do the most ppl do? Chilling in their houses or limsa. All 6 maps in each expansion have nothing to offer. You move from 1 spot to the next, 20 quest appear, that´s it. You only come back to grind some hunts or fates.

Call it as you want, but i´ve invested more than enough time in this game just to move on. And having more difficulty fights and variations would never be an issue. Only ppl make issues out of them like "i can´t, too hard, but i want the loot...", heck there are even ppl who pay real money for some savage / ultimate carries. How dumb can someone be???

Nobody is asking for stuff, which can only be done by 1% of the playerbase. But we ask for stuff with isn´t braindead as 98% of all the game is.
I personally know more than enough MMO first timers, ppl who´re new to games overall and mighty casuals, who found fun in savage content. They practiced, got better and finally beat atleast 3/4 fights each tier, if not all 4 before echo becomes a thing. So far yes, i call everyone who lies his ass back on braindead content and who don´t want more than "rundowns / fategrind" just a lazy person and not a gamer.

The game offers a bunch of good things, but in kind of gameplay SE needs to stop to homogenize all classes and to dumb down the content in any way. Endwalker won´t even be better. Class homogenization with different animations and dungeons where only the boss matters anymore. And ppl are like "hurray!". Of course those players don´t have any gamesense too. And how should they if they´ve never played something different or never came into the enjoyment to beat something? They live in FF14 where you get an easier option and are able to clear 98% of all content with 2 buttons. If you can´t see all the flaws a experienced MMO-player, i don´t know what else to say. If you´re really here to enjoy the world or story, i could name you some singleplayer games or even SWTOR as MMORPG which does it FAR BETTER.


And seriously, if half of the players are not even here for a real gameplay-experience, why do they even care about it? Why do you want to stay on 1-button permagrinds? Because of some bling bling or a mount? Come on... the most don´t even know if they would enjoy it and i promise, that they would as long as its not just bullet-sponging or move from A to B.

[DPZ2]

You seem to be intent on bullying her, thats why i called you a troll and a clown since you absolutely can't be serious about any of the points you are making.

Your internal projection of assumptions that are not inherent in my words is the problem here. I was sincere in wanting to understand what parts of this game have been enough to keep the poster engaged.

I get a tirade from you about trolling because, somehow, you can't believe anyone is serious about what they write.

By saying things like "you don't enjoy the game at all since you want parts of it to be better" is genuinely a bad faith argument that lacks any logic.

If you've ever seen those words in a post I've made, your are welcome to this opinion. However, I have never said this. You are free to believe whatever you wish, but you are not free to make up words and arguments that I have never made.

[Deliciou5]

Your internal projection of assumptions that are not inherent in my words is the problem here. I was sincere in wanting to understand what parts of this game have been enough to keep the poster engaged.

I get a tirade from you about trolling because, somehow, you can't believe anyone is serious about what they write.



If you've ever seen those words in a post I've made, your are welcome to this opinion. However, I have never said this. You are free to believe whatever you wish, but you are not free to make up words and arguments that I have never made.

Serious question: Why are you playing it? I would have moved on by now. I've tried out most MMOs created in the last 20 years, and when it doesn't satisfy, I drop it.

This is why you fail. You are literally making assumptions about how she should move on from a game she still enjoys because you assume she doesn't like it because she wants it to be better.(in her opinion)

Don't try to manipulate me, don't talk such ROT.

P.S.: Have you heard of the high elves?

[Elissar]

We always have two or three complicated (i'm using 'complicated' to classify instances where you can wipe) dungeons for the "story" mode
ARR: Aurum Vale and Wanderer's Palace

Heavensward: Gubal Library and Dusk Vigil

Stormblood: Ala Mhigo, Doma Castle and Ghimlyt Dark

Shadowbringers: Grand Cosmos, Heroes' Gauntlet and 3rd nier raid.


From my perspective, there is two things that determinate the difficult of a instance: your role and your gear.

When they released the first NIER raid it was hard. You could die easily in one shot against Engels, now you can handle two or even three attacks (ilvl 520-530).
Praetorium and Meridanum was harder back in the days of ARR too.



Honestly i don't see any problem. Maybe you all are just bored and want something new...as the devs already said "if that is the case, you can play something else".
I'd like to reinforce the fact that WoW started his decay when the devs listened this kind of appeal.