A request for Endwalker Dungeons (No more Undertuned)

[Nuttymiked]

I was watching Preach talk about how he is enjoying the <50 dungeons because they have all these little extra mechanics to do and side areas to explore and discover and how he was excited to see how it would improve. And all I could think was how sad I was because all they did was remove those nice little extra things in favour of making a big corridor of trash boss trash boss trash boss. Because people seemingly couldn't deal with taking a wrong turn on their first run I guess? Shame. I wish they would bring back the exploring to dungeons. Because as they stand now they are just so linear and dull. The story they are in, what you see is all nice sure. But I would like to actually have something to discover, to get lost and find my way etc. FFXIV really doesn't have much in the way of exploring at all honestly and it's sad.

Hmmm So I'm a new player. I'm close to finishing HW and I gotta say...HW seems a lot easier than ARR. Are you saying SB and ShB is going to be even more braindead easy? I was thinking that the dungeons and trials would "progress" overtime and expect the player to have gotten better at playing, introduce new mechanics, etc.

[Shurrikhan]

Hmmm So I'm a new player. I'm close to finishing HW and I gotta say...HW seems a lot easier than ARR. Are you saying SB and ShB is going to be even more braindead easy? I was thinking that the dungeons and trials would "progress" overtime and expect the player to have gotten better at playing, introduce new mechanics, etc.

StB dungeons have some gems (parts of Bartam of Doma Castle, especially).

ShB dungeons... well, I can't honestly say they're an improvement, especially over the likes of the Vault's bosses or the originality among some others.

[ssunny2008]

StB dungeons have some gems (parts of Bartam of Doma Castle, especially).

Don´t know what´s special about Doma. Bardam is special yes, but it´s no improvement or challenging. Just wall to wall bang and an "afk" boss. Nice puzzle-feature, but shouldn´t be a boss.

Hmmm So I'm a new player. I'm close to finishing HW and I gotta say...HW seems a lot easier than ARR. Are you saying SB and ShB is going to be even more braindead easy? I was thinking that the dungeons and trials would "progress" overtime and expect the player to have gotten better at playing, introduce new mechanics, etc.

Stuff is definately getting more braindead. Away from dungeons there are only like 2 fights in the whole SHB expansion and 1 in SB which are more than the usual stuff. One is an extreme fight and the other a savage one. The rest is just more of the same. Dungeons have become even more braindead especially with more tools on any class, which mostly last in "fill the gauge with 123, press the button, enjoy the burst".

Gameplay-wise ARR is far superior than anything beyond. Devs care more about glam and a braindead mode, so any idiot will cash into the game, just to see some half-naked bunnies or cats running around. More than enough changes has shown that visuals are way more important than the gameplay and content.

[Shurrikhan]

Don´t know what´s special about Doma. Bardam is special yes, but it´s no improvement or challenging. Just wall to wall bang and an "afk" boss. Nice puzzle-feature, but shouldn´t be a boss.

It's mostly just that certain wall-to-wall pulls in those two at least have some degree of challenge, and the vibes of each place make what would otherwise feel like more of the same feel just distinct enough to be more bearable. CA's got some just-distinct-enough pulls, too.

For context, my idea of a particularly fun dungeon would still be something like Castrum Meridanium Extreme where there'd be no CSs or Cid to wait on, multiple routes by which to achieve your objectives, notable manipulation of the pathing of otherwise overwhelming forces, some reason to split the party at certain points, etc., so it's not as if I'm satisfied by any of the above dungeons; they're just better, imo, than any of the Shadowbringers ones apart from perhaps Qitana Ravel.

[Deceptus]

Can we PLEASE not get undertuned dungeons anymore? Matoyas Relict comes to mind. This is just, in my opinion, incredibly boring. Everything dies pretty much immediately and there isn't any serious risk. That's all.

Thanks for coming to my Talk.

Dungeons aren't undertuned, we're overgeared for them.

Wait until the next expansion hits and the leveling dungeons will hit tanks like a truck, especially if they're not keeping their gear up to date.

[aveyond-dreams]

If you want a dungeon you can explore and get meaningful rewards for doing so, play deep dungeon. That way we can have levelling dungeons for a more cinematic story experience/tunnel and deep dungeons for people who want to explore. Side areas in regular dungeons only have trash mobs (that will no longer give exp) or chests that have potions in them.

[RitsukoSonoda]

If you want a dungeon you can explore and get meaningful rewards for doing so, play deep dungeon. That way we can have levelling dungeons for a more cinematic story experience/tunnel and deep dungeons for people who want to explore. Side areas in regular dungeons only have trash mobs (that will no longer give exp) or chests that have potions in them.

Majority of people don't "explore" deep dungeons. They're just used as a leveling tool to get exp on DoW/DoM jobs. As such it's basically rush rush rush to get to the boss asap.

They could change the formula going forward to have side areas either contain more loot chests or mechanics that would make later parts of the duty easier. In the case of the latter it would be a choice of taking the time to do it the easy way or clenching your cheeks as you try running straight to the end.

[ItMe]

Because they aren't nice. They are cool exactly once and then a headache every other time thereafter. I do not understand this sentiment. What is so exciting about your tank getting lost and taking a wrong turn in totorak and your reward is... extra boring trash in one of the worst dungeons in the game? And practically, all those side paths may as well not exist because people will figure out the fastest means through a place and that trickles down pretty quick through the games playerbase. People had Qarn, Darkhold, Totorak and Cutters cry figured out by the end of the first month of ARR launch and you'd almost never blunder down one of those side routes anyway, at which point they don't serve any purpose.

Same deal with the Qarn puzzle. Like I think it's neat but the reality isn't 4 sprouts staring at the scales intently, trying to solve the puzzle, it's someone checking a wiki for the answer or someone that has already done it and knows the answer. The little mystique these things grant on first encountering them is not worth the tedium they produce on repeat encounters in the future.

Majority of people don't "explore" deep dungeons. They're just used as a leveling tool to get exp on DoW/DoM jobs. As such it's basically rush rush rush to get to the boss asap.

So what I'm getting from this whole conversation is: for content in FF14 to be capable of supporting quality exploration... it needs to both be decoupled from levelling and needs to (somehow) discourage players from running it repeatedly (thus reducing the desire for it to be streamlined).

What kind of content like this would they be able to make?

[RitsukoSonoda]

So what I'm getting from this whole conversation is: for content in FF14 to be capable of supporting quality exploration... it needs to both be decoupled from levelling and needs to (somehow) discourage players from running it repeatedly (thus reducing the desire for it to be streamlined).

What kind of content like this would they be able to make?

IMO the biggest deterrents to quality exploration are the over abundance of teleport locations in the overworld that eliminate most needs to actually travel to locations once the story puts you there the first time and the whole instanced duty system. MMO's I'd played in the past lacking these things I would typically find people exploring frequently since people were more prone to have various landmarks and things seen on a map catch their attention when they're actually travelling through the area and not stuck on duty timer with someone screaming "ESPORTS 420 SPEEDRUNZ"

[Roda]

No thanks. I am casual player and I don't want to get stuck in dugeon trying to complete MSQ
Not all of us live in this game. We got life outside.

"Casual" does not mean "person who plays at a less than average level of effectiveness."
"harder dungeons" does not mean you'll need to form a prog group to finish the dungeon. No one is asking for extreme+ level dungeons to replace story dungeons.

But when I can post on the forums between gcds and still call the run a speed run, we've got a problem here. I'd personally like it if dungeons could once again take my eyes off my second monitor for the duration.

And honestly, If they manage to have an ex level dungeon somehow, you have trusts. You will never be blocked from a dungeon complete.

But as someone who has been wanting to have something to casually do in the game when I have some surprise free-time, I'd really like it if my low-stakes instanced content had a bit of novelty to keep me awake and actually entice me to do it outside of extrinsic rewards.

Fair...
Also, those timers can get pretty spicy and exploring can be real dangerous in deep dungeons.

Yeah, and that's the other part of it. Risk can be fun!
But,
when you're doing exploration based content, you kind of want screwups to have less of a punishment to encourage experimentation. (It's a big problem I had with eureka)

IMO the biggest deterrents to quality exploration are the over abundance of teleport locations in the overworld that eliminate most needs to actually travel to locations once the story puts you there the first time and the whole instanced duty system. MMO's I'd played in the past lacking these things I would typically find people exploring frequently since people were more prone to have various landmarks and things seen on a map catch their attention when they're actually travelling through the area and not stuck on duty timer with someone screaming "ESPORTS 420 SPEEDRUNZ"

Honestly, I don't know about that. HW and onward have very few teleports per sq ft of map and how many people have taken the time to explore the tomb of king manfred? Found the hanging dragon in western coerthas? There are some secrets in the overworld, yes, but then what? There's no gameplay with exploration in this game. No secret quests. (or if they are secret, they are VERY well hidden) No environmental interactivity. Nothing. The overworld is just a backdrop for the MSQ, sidequests and fates.

I think SE did the game dirty when they slapped duty timers on eureka and bozja, and had them be instances you queued for. Big openworld content, at least in my eyes, is fun when you can just stumble into it while you're doing something else, or waiting for a queue. Eureka/bozja just will never scratch that itch 'cause they're about fate farming and only about fate farming (and like one siege).

I guess, let me put it this way. I had more of a sense of exploration when I found the magic pot, than I did looking for the magicite that krile told me was ~over there somewhere~ and then it was next to a conspicuously placed wrecked house.

Give me a broken tablet thrown on the ground next to an inconspicuous tree. Make the missing words reappear during a certain phase of the moon with certain weather. Have those words tell me to go to a spot and emote. Have that emote trigger an unmarked fate to spawn. Have the completion of the fate trigger an npc to send me (and all other participants) a mail. Have that mail tell me to meet that npc at a certain time in a certain location and do a emote to them (don't tell the name, give us a visual tell). Have that npc send me on some other random questy stuff, idk write a story, I'm not the critically acclaimed rpg here. Puzzles!