A request for Endwalker Dungeons (No more Undertuned)

[Deliciou5]

Experience with a number of MMOs and their predecessors over the last 35 years.

Anecdotal knowledge of the reasons in-game friends play (and struggle) with the game.

Memories of all of the massive threads about the large number of players who need to 'git gud' in these forums (most written with a "why don't they just leave, already?" attitude)

That doesn't answer my question at all.

Do you even know what a learning curve is?

You act like their is going to be a toxic person every party when most wouldn't have one. Are you trolling?

[Shurrikhan]

Memories of all of the massive threads about the large number of players who need to 'git gud' in these forums (most written with a "why don't they just leave, already?" attitude)

Yes, let's ignore that those were in response to people refusing to AoE, use CDs, etc., rather than anything remotely difficult, and the latter attitude was reserved for those who stubbornly insisted that the game should change only to suit their insistence on not engaging with the game.

[Shurrikhan]

Mythic+ from WoW, while a cool concept initially, has evolved over the years into the single worst game-mode that I've ever seen, fostering one of the most toxic online communities and general mindsets. It's a big part of the reason why I finally left WoW. I dearly, dearly hope nothing of the sort is implemented here in FFXIV.

The critical issues I found with it:
- Focusing around timed runs further emphasized "GOGOGO", which isn't an open-ended form of gameplay a lot of players are interested in, so it begins limiting the amount of playerbase that gets into it
- Originally M+ offered the easiest means of gearing up, which annoyed the raiders so the reward structure started getting really wonky as the years progressed, requiring more work for less rewards, only really rewarding the people who played the game mode hardcore and becoming less and less casual-friendly
- Because of the changes in reward structure, really only rewarding those that push the further, the in-game gatekeeping got INSANE, which killed a lot of casual-access to the game mode, especially if anybody started a season late
- And then recently they started applying mount rewards for completing the major challenge-point, which was clearly an attempt to get more players to attempt it, but wound up resulting in the in-game community gatekeeping access even harder

I understand folks interest in having harder game content to play, but if rewards are involved in any way, shape, or form, then it's going to devolve quickly into unpleasantness for a lot of the playerbase, which so far as I know SE is actively attempting to avoid.

This is pretty exaggerative...

- Short of a +10 or so, you had time for a DPS or two to go afk for several minutes at a time and still wipe several times as a group.
- The rewards capped at a +15 (or +14 for the choice of weekly bonus loot, which was shared with raiding and PvP), whereas hardcore groups were progging 27+. Hardcore M+ players were the only ones not being proportionately rewarded for their efforts. (Why did they do it, then? For the fun of competition itself.)
- Again, by the time you left midcore, you stopped being rewarded. Casual access was still well and truly there. You just didn't get the same rewards for doing a run no harder than a Normal raid as one would get from a run at least as hard as doing a Heroic one. That's not "exclusive" or "anti-casual"; that's merely proportionate and allowing for progression.
- The "gatekeeping" was unchanged. Do your +13s and you tended to get invites to +14s, perhaps even 15s, regardless of spec, so long as the party you applied to hit its bases (access to useful CC, Bloodlust/Heroism, etc.). Have only an average of +7s, and no, you weren't likely to be invited to anything above a +10, but why would you be?

[DPZ2]

That doesn't answer my question at all.

Do you even know what a learning curve is?

Yes, I know what a learning curve is. I also know that the place on that curve where the major drop-off for players begins is much lower than the more gifted players in this game assume. That knowledge comes from the first item I listed: "Experience". That knowledge comes from the second item I listed, albeit anecdotal evidence is not proof, but has been enough for me to see any number of in-game friends and acquaintances drop out over the last 7 years because that next step was simply too hard. That knowledge comes from the last item I listed as well - the attitude that, with just a little more effort on their part, lazy players wouldn't be so bad.

An MMO isn't a single-player game where you can challenge the game on 'easy' through 'torture' modes. It requires a base level of challenge to encourage people who are there for the crafting or role play or story without preventing them from completing the current storyline. That's how MMOs have been designed for the last 15 years or so. It's been a business success since the day World of Warcraft beta came out.

[Deliciou5]

Yes, I know what a learning curve is. I also know that the place on that curve where the major drop-off for players begins is much lower than the more gifted players in this game assume. That knowledge comes from the first item I listed: "Experience". That knowledge comes from the second item I listed, albeit anecdotal evidence is not proof, but has been enough for me to see any number of in-game friends and acquaintances drop out over the last 7 years because that next step was simply too hard. That knowledge comes from the last item I listed as well - the attitude that, with just a little more effort on their part, lazy players wouldn't be so bad.

An MMO isn't a single-player game where you can challenge the game on 'easy' through 'torture' modes. It requires a base level of challenge to encourage people who are there for the crafting or role play or story without preventing them from completing the current storyline. That's how MMOs have been designed for the last 15 years or so. It's been a business success since the day World of Warcraft beta came out.

Learning curves are there to teach players how to play the game, by ramping up difficulty slowly.

Under your logic any form of difficulty at all would make them quit which is not the case since the game is already brain dead easy throughout it's storyline and requires almost no effort from the player.

You have no idea how much harder it would be .....yet any difficulty increase at all according to you would make them quit.

I am sorry but you just don't know what you are talking about, you couldn't....we are speaking in hypothetical increase which is more or less to whatever you say it is.

It's just a blanket statement based on your assumptions.

If it only gradually gets harder through a learning curve then it wouldn't be issue since end game dungeons are supposed to be harder right?

They wouldn't get to level 80 main story quest loving it the whole way through then quit on the way to 90 main story quest after they came this far, if they were going to quit the game would be during ARR or the more boring parts of the game...not after the story hooked them at 80+.

[ItMe]

Learning curves are there to teach players how to play the game, by ramping up difficulty slowly.

Under your logic any form of difficulty at all would make them quit which is not the case since the game is already brain dead easy throughout it's storyline and requires almost no effort from the player.

[...]

If it only gradually gets harder through a learning curve then it wouldn't be issue since end game dungeons are supposed to be harder right?

But a curve would stop some from seeing through FF14's highly regarded story, and that is something they've shown to prioritize over making each of its many steps challenging.

Are dungeons too easy?
Maybe. That's why we're in this thread after all lol.

Will we ever get a "proper" difficulty curve?
I don't think so. Especially not with the ever ballooning amount of story people need to play through before they're caught up.
It might be more reasonable to begin asking for more challenge in content outside the MSQ, because the more I think about it the more it seems that's the last place they'll raise the bar.



Not to mention... how could a difficulty curve even be maintained when they keep releasing more and more story?

They can't just keep making each expac harder. That'll lead to jacked up difficulty problems real fast.

But they also can't just go back and flatten the curve for earlier content, there's too much to rebalance (let alone to re-rebalance with each expac). And that would lead to other issues with current content still never getting harder AND people being upset because the older stuff they liked has been nerfed. At least the way we are going now most content can still be enjoyed about as challenging as it was on release with min iLVL.

[Shurrikhan]

But a curve would stop some from seeing through FF14's highly regarded story, and that is something they've shown to prioritize over making each of its many steps challenging.
...
Will we ever get a "proper" difficulty curve?
I don't think so. Especially not with the ever ballooning amount of story people need to play through before they're caught up.

There's nothing about the plot that'd prevent a "proper" difficulty curve. That barely noticeable increase, each time, in difficulty, is exactly what makes a difficulty curve "proper", after all.

The relationship is quite the opposite: the more requisite steps, the more "stuff to do" you can allow from the endgame experience without making any single step too difficult.

And, similarly, the more engagement you center only outside of the MSQ, the larger a gap you create between player "types" and the more accordant toxicity you stimulate.

[ItMe]

There's nothing about the plot that'd prevent a "proper" difficulty curve. That barely noticeable increase, each time, in difficulty, is exactly what makes a difficulty curve "proper", after all.

Nothing about the plot would prevent a "proper" difficulty curve... outside of the fact that it's always updating with more and more with no end really in sight, as I touched on below where you cut off my quoted text.
I just don't understand how a curve could realistically be implemented well with FF14's structure.

The relationship is quite the opposite: the more requisite steps, the more "stuff to do" you can allow from the endgame experience without making any single step too difficult.

That's true. More steps = gentler curve.
In that part of my comment, my observation was more about a different problem with how many, many steps there are. In a regular simgle player RPG the difficulty curve will follow you through 40-80 hours of story. But in FF14 once you hit more resistance from the MSQ, considering it is hundreds of hours, it could start to feel more like a slog. Especially with so gentle a difficulty curve I think most of it will be more akin to slowing you down more than meaningfully challenging you.
Not to mention that wether it feels like a slog or not the curve would magnify the amount of time it takes to get through the already long (and ever growing longer) MSQ.

And, similarly, the more engagement you center only outside of the MSQ, the larger a gap you create between player "types" and the more accordant toxicity you stimulate.

Depends on how they do it.
Right now MSQ is not difficult, and after that you have a plethora of midcore options to act as an intermediate step to more hard-core content.
Having difficulty centered outside the MSQ is kinda what they're already doing and for the most part it seems to be a functioning approach.

[ssunny2008]

But a curve would stop some from seeing through FF14's highly regarded story, and that is something they've shown to prioritize over making each of its many steps challenging.

Are dungeons too easy?
Maybe. That's why we're in this thread after all lol.

Will we ever get a "proper" difficulty curve?
I don't think so. Especially not with the ever ballooning amount of story people need to play through before they're caught up.
It might be more reasonable to begin asking for more challenge in content outside the MSQ, because the more I think about it the more it seems that's the last place they'll raise the bar.

SE should copy&paste some systems from other games and the issues are solved.

- Get ride of dungeons in the MSQ.
- Make them alternate content with a little sidestory and if you´re able to finish them, you´ll get rare gear.
- Use the rare gear to have an easier life in your MSQ.

And for the endgame:

- Create hardcore dungeons
- The loot should be the first gear - step to enter savage raids, not the normal raid coin bs.

It would solve many issues. We would´ve a MSQ with a littlelearning curve. This curve increases with the normal dungeons and you´ll get rewarded. In the endgame you get prepared for savage content with the next step of the learning curve and gear.

And making every expansion harder wouldn´t be a case. Mechanics should be slightly different and you need better gear. The difficulty is to get used to new things and to grind new gear, MSQ would stay as it is. The current geargrind is just way too simple and all fights follow strict patterns. The loot in dungeons is not relevant and any tank / healer can solo clear everything. This is just dumb.

[DPZ2]

snip

So, turn FFXIV into WoW, but worse.

At that point, SE might as well ditch this game and come out with a single-player version of the game. Problem solved.

< /sarcasm >