A request for Endwalker Dungeons (No more Undertuned)

[DPZ2]

That doesn't answer my question at all.

Do you even know what a learning curve is?

Yes, I know what a learning curve is. I also know that the place on that curve where the major drop-off for players begins is much lower than the more gifted players in this game assume. That knowledge comes from the first item I listed: "Experience". That knowledge comes from the second item I listed, albeit anecdotal evidence is not proof, but has been enough for me to see any number of in-game friends and acquaintances drop out over the last 7 years because that next step was simply too hard. That knowledge comes from the last item I listed as well - the attitude that, with just a little more effort on their part, lazy players wouldn't be so bad.

An MMO isn't a single-player game where you can challenge the game on 'easy' through 'torture' modes. It requires a base level of challenge to encourage people who are there for the crafting or role play or story without preventing them from completing the current storyline. That's how MMOs have been designed for the last 15 years or so. It's been a business success since the day World of Warcraft beta came out.

[Deliciou5]

Yes, I know what a learning curve is. I also know that the place on that curve where the major drop-off for players begins is much lower than the more gifted players in this game assume. That knowledge comes from the first item I listed: "Experience". That knowledge comes from the second item I listed, albeit anecdotal evidence is not proof, but has been enough for me to see any number of in-game friends and acquaintances drop out over the last 7 years because that next step was simply too hard. That knowledge comes from the last item I listed as well - the attitude that, with just a little more effort on their part, lazy players wouldn't be so bad.

An MMO isn't a single-player game where you can challenge the game on 'easy' through 'torture' modes. It requires a base level of challenge to encourage people who are there for the crafting or role play or story without preventing them from completing the current storyline. That's how MMOs have been designed for the last 15 years or so. It's been a business success since the day World of Warcraft beta came out.

Learning curves are there to teach players how to play the game, by ramping up difficulty slowly.

Under your logic any form of difficulty at all would make them quit which is not the case since the game is already brain dead easy throughout it's storyline and requires almost no effort from the player.

You have no idea how much harder it would be .....yet any difficulty increase at all according to you would make them quit.

I am sorry but you just don't know what you are talking about, you couldn't....we are speaking in hypothetical increase which is more or less to whatever you say it is.

It's just a blanket statement based on your assumptions.

If it only gradually gets harder through a learning curve then it wouldn't be issue since end game dungeons are supposed to be harder right?

They wouldn't get to level 80 main story quest loving it the whole way through then quit on the way to 90 main story quest after they came this far, if they were going to quit the game would be during ARR or the more boring parts of the game...not after the story hooked them at 80+.

[ItMe]

Learning curves are there to teach players how to play the game, by ramping up difficulty slowly.

Under your logic any form of difficulty at all would make them quit which is not the case since the game is already brain dead easy throughout it's storyline and requires almost no effort from the player.

[...]

If it only gradually gets harder through a learning curve then it wouldn't be issue since end game dungeons are supposed to be harder right?

But a curve would stop some from seeing through FF14's highly regarded story, and that is something they've shown to prioritize over making each of its many steps challenging.

Are dungeons too easy?
Maybe. That's why we're in this thread after all lol.

Will we ever get a "proper" difficulty curve?
I don't think so. Especially not with the ever ballooning amount of story people need to play through before they're caught up.
It might be more reasonable to begin asking for more challenge in content outside the MSQ, because the more I think about it the more it seems that's the last place they'll raise the bar.



Not to mention... how could a difficulty curve even be maintained when they keep releasing more and more story?

They can't just keep making each expac harder. That'll lead to jacked up difficulty problems real fast.

But they also can't just go back and flatten the curve for earlier content, there's too much to rebalance (let alone to re-rebalance with each expac). And that would lead to other issues with current content still never getting harder AND people being upset because the older stuff they liked has been nerfed. At least the way we are going now most content can still be enjoyed about as challenging as it was on release with min iLVL.

[Shurrikhan]

But a curve would stop some from seeing through FF14's highly regarded story, and that is something they've shown to prioritize over making each of its many steps challenging.
...
Will we ever get a "proper" difficulty curve?
I don't think so. Especially not with the ever ballooning amount of story people need to play through before they're caught up.

There's nothing about the plot that'd prevent a "proper" difficulty curve. That barely noticeable increase, each time, in difficulty, is exactly what makes a difficulty curve "proper", after all.

The relationship is quite the opposite: the more requisite steps, the more "stuff to do" you can allow from the endgame experience without making any single step too difficult.

And, similarly, the more engagement you center only outside of the MSQ, the larger a gap you create between player "types" and the more accordant toxicity you stimulate.

[ItMe]

There's nothing about the plot that'd prevent a "proper" difficulty curve. That barely noticeable increase, each time, in difficulty, is exactly what makes a difficulty curve "proper", after all.

Nothing about the plot would prevent a "proper" difficulty curve... outside of the fact that it's always updating with more and more with no end really in sight, as I touched on below where you cut off my quoted text.
I just don't understand how a curve could realistically be implemented well with FF14's structure.

The relationship is quite the opposite: the more requisite steps, the more "stuff to do" you can allow from the endgame experience without making any single step too difficult.

That's true. More steps = gentler curve.
In that part of my comment, my observation was more about a different problem with how many, many steps there are. In a regular simgle player RPG the difficulty curve will follow you through 40-80 hours of story. But in FF14 once you hit more resistance from the MSQ, considering it is hundreds of hours, it could start to feel more like a slog. Especially with so gentle a difficulty curve I think most of it will be more akin to slowing you down more than meaningfully challenging you.
Not to mention that wether it feels like a slog or not the curve would magnify the amount of time it takes to get through the already long (and ever growing longer) MSQ.

And, similarly, the more engagement you center only outside of the MSQ, the larger a gap you create between player "types" and the more accordant toxicity you stimulate.

Depends on how they do it.
Right now MSQ is not difficult, and after that you have a plethora of midcore options to act as an intermediate step to more hard-core content.
Having difficulty centered outside the MSQ is kinda what they're already doing and for the most part it seems to be a functioning approach.

[ssunny2008]

But a curve would stop some from seeing through FF14's highly regarded story, and that is something they've shown to prioritize over making each of its many steps challenging.

Are dungeons too easy?
Maybe. That's why we're in this thread after all lol.

Will we ever get a "proper" difficulty curve?
I don't think so. Especially not with the ever ballooning amount of story people need to play through before they're caught up.
It might be more reasonable to begin asking for more challenge in content outside the MSQ, because the more I think about it the more it seems that's the last place they'll raise the bar.

SE should copy&paste some systems from other games and the issues are solved.

- Get ride of dungeons in the MSQ.
- Make them alternate content with a little sidestory and if you´re able to finish them, you´ll get rare gear.
- Use the rare gear to have an easier life in your MSQ.

And for the endgame:

- Create hardcore dungeons
- The loot should be the first gear - step to enter savage raids, not the normal raid coin bs.

It would solve many issues. We would´ve a MSQ with a littlelearning curve. This curve increases with the normal dungeons and you´ll get rewarded. In the endgame you get prepared for savage content with the next step of the learning curve and gear.

And making every expansion harder wouldn´t be a case. Mechanics should be slightly different and you need better gear. The difficulty is to get used to new things and to grind new gear, MSQ would stay as it is. The current geargrind is just way too simple and all fights follow strict patterns. The loot in dungeons is not relevant and any tank / healer can solo clear everything. This is just dumb.

[DPZ2]

snip

So, turn FFXIV into WoW, but worse.

At that point, SE might as well ditch this game and come out with a single-player version of the game. Problem solved.

< /sarcasm >

[ssunny2008]

So, turn FFXIV into WoW, but worse.

Call it however you want, but there is a reason why WoW is successful for ages like other games with similar systems. FF14 has no real progress system. Everything can be done with low gear - low efford besides savage / ultimate. A real progress system with rewards, which assists you, and a decent more optional learning curve would be far better than the current "easier options" or braindead wall to wall bang.

This game has the PS advantage and is a RP heaven with all the bling bling. But it lacks hard gameplay and content wise. There is a reason why so many ppl don´t know how to play and don´t even want to put some efford in a class or whatever. The game doesn´t force anything and so they´re like "I don´t care, i do a good job."

[DPZ2]

Call it however you want, but there is a reason why WoW is successful for ages like other games with similar systems.

WoW was successful because it was the first. Because it used to know how to tell a story. Because it was the only game on the market that did what it did. Others followed. Most of the true knock-offs-with-differences didn't make it. It was most popular during its second expansion. I don't call dropping 10 million monthly paying subscribers over the next 13 years "successful". It was the first MMO for many players who are now in their 20s and 30s -- and that counts a lot toward its popularity, despite the game style. I played the game through the beginning of BFA and then abandoned the game. Realistically, I should have abandoned it when I first started playing FFXIV, but the Warlords storyline was interesting enough and Legion became fun to play for a while still.

I enjoy a game where the story has meaning, where I have meaning. WoW lost out because the story didn't mean anything to the company. I as a player didn't matter -- all the major bad guys were defeated by NPCs, not by me. This is storytelling at its worst. If all I wanted was an arena game with a story line where Things Happen only in books, there were plenty of other options.

I've enjoyed the FFXIV storyline. I, as a player, matter. I defeat the major bad guys, not some carefully crafted NPC whose major contributions to the storyline are in a book.

FFXIV has become successful because it does its own thing. It is not a one-for-one WoW clone, which, frankly, is the best thing it has going for it. SE has a different idea on where they want to take the game. It may not be to your liking, and that's ok.

The game is only "braindead" because you're vastly overqualified to play it. FFXIV never promised to be the next WoW-killer. The fact that so many WoW players are trying it is great, but the game is not dependent on those WoW players. It has developed its own niche. Thankfully, it appears as though the Producer's vision is to continue in that direction.

[Shurrikhan]

....

I can't say I'm a fan of any of these ideas apart from merely having the option to do more difficult dungeons - i.e., there for those who really enjoy what's possible in/for 4-man content.

Just as I wouldn't want to oblige that 24-man raids enter the obliged weekly grind for players who've already done Savage (and don't care to gear up alts), I see no point in requiring harder 4-man content as a requisite step before 8-man content, especially given that the experiences are so different anyways.