Mentor abuse DC on purpose

[SturmChurro]

Why go after mentors in the first place? If your problems lie within the system itself, it makes absolute sense to critcise the system instead of the player.

Again, asking for a rework in itself is not a problem. But when people get harassed for a few, that's when the alarm should be ringing. All of this seems like a witch hunt to me if anything really. The people who have a problem with mentors are for the most part inexperienced and take their frustrations out on those they believe are responsible for them in the first place.

I have never harassed a mentor, in fact I was the one harassed by several via whispers on my sprout alt, and kicked out of the Novice Network, for having the audacity of asking about properly reporting a "bad" mentor, and if SE actually enforces the guidelines for mentorship, many years ago... It is not inexperience, but from experience that I have formed the opinions that I and many others share. I (we) have bore witness to many mentors time and time again, put in less effort, and harass other players, and more for the past several years. This isn't some new occurrence, it just seems that recently, it has gotten more noticeable. Also, this thread is about mentor abuse specifically, so it makes sense for that to be talked about here.

I just wanted to say that I agree with everything you said. Also, people who keep bashing mentors, say that the mount should be removed, and/or suggest not queuing for the Mentor Roulette if you don't want to do extremes are pointless to argue with. I know this from experience since they've been saying the exact same thing in every single post about this matter and never once changed their views or listened no matter what arguments/logic/explanations/etc. people gave them.

You want the reward removed? Fine with me. I'd definitely run the Mentor Roulette a lot more if it didn't have Ex trials, and I'd certainly do that without the reward being involved. And if I want to help people with Ex trials, I'll hop into PF like I usually do.

I have been saying the same things about mentorship for years, and I think my arguments are sound, so I see no reason to change them. I have also addressed other viewpoints, such as a separated roulette for extremes. Without constant oversight by SE, and other aspects changed, the system just will never work out as intended, in my opinion. So, I think the best case scenario is for it to be removed. I have also not advocated for the mount to be removed from mentors who have already gotten it, but for it to be simply moved to another means of attaining it.

[nebby00]

I think this thread has gone on way too long at this point. Every single point on both sides has been argued to hell and back again and this goes for everyone on both sides of the argument: you cannot change the minds of someone who feels strongly about something, especially when it comes down to morals and interactions with other players

No one, and I repeat: no one had been bashing/harassing any specific mentor who by all means have been doing the best they can. The only complaints was on the bad mentors who unfortunately pop up and are more vocal. Yes, it may not be fair that all mentors get pushed into one box, but until the system gets improved or removed, this will continue to be a problem. We can argue all day and night about it, but in the end nothing will change until the developers themselves intervene.

Lay it to rest, 8 pages is way too long for this discussion and it's going nowhere fast.

[Shin96]

-snip-

I've met alot of great mentors in my time, and I do play for a fair amount. The greatest people I've known with the richest stories to tell in how they decided to become mentors. Some of them sad, some of them happy, they all have reasons. So how come our stories do not match up? Or is it just because we choose to be ignorant? Or show our bias? In the end, there's no way to know for sure. I can only say I will continue to be a mentor, despite the removal of the crown. The crown is nice to have, but ultimately my reasons in being a mentor lie elsewhere. I'm sorry you got harassed, but even by changing a system.. the people perpetuating this unreasonable hate will want other things removed. That's why I have a strong stance against the removal of Mentorship; set a statement that we are allowed to take pride in who are. What people think about me or you is irrelevant, what matters is knowing who you are and nothing can change that.

No one, and I repeat: no one had been bashing/harassing any specific mentor who by all means have been doing the best they can. The only complaints was on the bad mentors who unfortunately pop up and are more vocal. Yes, it may not be fair that all mentors get pushed into one box, but until the system gets improved or removed, this will continue to be a problem. We can argue all day and night about it, but in the end nothing will change until the developers themselves intervene.

And while this is probably true for the most part, do not mistake that there genuinely are people just waiting to have reasons to do anything or stirr drama. Mentors can feel this change in the atmosphere quickly, we are becoming the new scapegoats. Live and let live. If I screw up in giving advice I take responsibility, but that is all that I can do.

[Vahlnir]

I've met alot of great mentors in my time, and I do play for a fair amount. The greatest people I've known with the richest stories to tell in how they decided to become mentors. Some of them sad, some of them happy, they all have reasons. So how come our stories do not match up? Or is it just because we choose to be ignorant? Or show our bias? In the end, there's no way to know for sure. I can only say I will continue to be a mentor, despite the removal of the crown. The crown is nice to have, but ultimately my reasons in being a mentor lie elsewhere. I'm sorry you got harassed, but even by changing a system.. the people perpetuating this unreasonable hate will want other things removed. That's why I have a strong stance against the removal of Mentorship; set a statement that we are allowed to take pride in who are. What people think about me or you is irrelevant, what matters is knowing who you are and nothing can change that.



And while this is probably true for the most part, do not mistake that there genuinely are people just waiting to have reasons to do anything or stirr drama. Mentors can feel this change in the atmosphere quickly, we are becoming the new scapegoats. Live and let live. If I screw up in giving advice I take responsibility, but that is all that I can do.

[Xirean]

I have never harassed a mentor, in fact I was the one harassed by several via whispers on my sprout alt, and kicked out of the Novice Network, for having the audacity of asking about properly reporting a "bad" mentor, and if SE actually enforces the guidelines for mentorship, many years ago... It is not inexperience, but from experience that I have formed the opinions that I and many others share. I (we) have bore witness to many mentors time and time again, put in less effort, and harass other players, and more for the past several years. This isn't some new occurrence, it just seems that recently, it has gotten more noticeable. Also, this thread is about mentor abuse specifically, so it makes sense for that to be talked about here.

That's just the "bad apples" analogy again. It's why it comes off as you (and others) as attacking mentors. The fact that this thread has "mentor" in the title is stupid imo. It's a player trying to avoid a penalty. Your story of mentors harassing you for trying to report another mentor is also just players harassing you. That's what I argue against. Mentors are just players with a stupid icon & false expectations put upon them. Nobody should ever try to lump all mentors together because mentors are not a collective. There's no group meeting about it. It's a bunch of separate people all with their own opinions about what it means. That's the basis of the entire problem with the mentor system. The very idea of "mentors shouldn't do X" is absurd. If someone is harassing you, report it. But stop expecting people who leveled 3 classes to cap and got some clears to somehow fit your definition of a better person.

[SturmChurro]

I've met alot of great mentors in my time, and I do play for a fair amount. The greatest people I've known with the richest stories to tell in how they decided to become mentors. Some of them sad, some of them happy, they all have reasons. So how come our stories do not match up? Or is it just because we choose to be ignorant? Or show our bias? In the end, there's no way to know for sure. I can only say I will continue to be a mentor, despite the removal of the crown. The crown is nice to have, but ultimately my reasons in being a mentor lie elsewhere. I'm sorry you got harassed, but even by changing a system.. the people perpetuating this unreasonable hate will want other things removed. That's why I have a strong stance against the removal of Mentorship; set a statement that we are allowed to take pride in who are. What people think about me or you is irrelevant, what matters is knowing who you are and nothing can change that.

I have met some 'good' mentors too, but I have also met players who aren't mentors help just as much as those good mentors, and even more at times. It's just human nature to remember bad experiences more vividly. I have always held the opinion that a player doesn't have to be a mentor if they truly want to help other players, and be a good example. If you have removed your crown, but still 'mentor' then what is the purpose of the mentor system? It just further shows that there is no need of this system, at least not in it's current form.

The mentors who harassed me, might as well have laughed in my face, the way they talked. They joked that SE wouldn't do anything about it, and there was no point in reporting a bad mentor. That same day, I removed myself (my main) from mentorship, as I didn't want to be associated with a system that allows the sort of abuse that goes on so often.

[Xirean]

I have met some 'good' mentors too, but I have also met players who aren't mentors help just as much as those good mentors, and even more at times. It's just human nature to remember bad experiences more vividly. I have always held the opinion that a player doesn't have to be a mentor if they truly want to help other players, and be a good example. If you have removed your crown, but still 'mentor' then what is the purpose of the mentor system? It just further shows that there is no need of this system, at least not in it's current form.

Yay! We agree!

The mentors who harassed me, might as well have laughed in my face, the way they talked. They joked that SE wouldn't do anything about it, and there was no point in reporting a bad mentor. That same day, I removed myself (my main) from mentorship, as I didn't want to be associated with a system that allows the sort of abuse that goes on so often.

That sucks. Out of curiosity, is telling people to leave the system how you think we can actually make the system change?

[Shin96]

If you have removed your crown, but still 'mentor' then what is the purpose of the mentor system? It just further shows that there is no need of this system, at least not in it's current form.

So players know that they can come to me for help. It does look kinda cool too, ngl. But my reason for becoming a mentor started somewhere else.

It was in Haukke Manor. Back then I didn't even know what a tank stance was. I was a complete fool, I asked for help and they would sarcastically shove me aside despite my plea for help. I knew that I can do better, and I took the greatest hardships to get where they are. I never saw them again, but I will never forget the day when I was so proud of myself to prove these people wrong. And then it hit me: I realized they were never right to begin with. It was my own will that turned me into a better player, and I realized even back then.. that these mentors existed. Hence the reason I wanted to make that difference among many of them.

It needs a change. But we also need to be more compassionate with everyone, lest we forget our reasons for becoming mentors in the first place.

[SturmChurro]

I was going to edit this reply into my last post, but I'll just edit it in here.

That's just the "bad apples" analogy again. It's why it comes off as you (and others) as attacking mentors. The fact that this thread has "mentor" in the title is stupid imo. It's a player trying to avoid a penalty. Your story of mentors harassing you for trying to report another mentor is also just players harassing you. That's what I argue against. Mentors are just players with a stupid icon & false expectations put upon them. Nobody should ever try to lump all mentors together because mentors are not a collective. There's no group meeting about it. It's a bunch of separate people all with their own opinions about what it means. That's the basis of the entire problem with the mentor system. The very idea of "mentors shouldn't do X" is absurd. If someone is harassing you, report it. But stop expecting people who leveled 3 classes to cap and got some clears to somehow fit your definition of a better person.

A mentor isn't just another player, they are meant to be an example for others. That is what the system was, presumably, meant to be. Players helping players, and being rewarded for doing so. In a perfect world, it's a good system. A player can choose to not be a mentor, just as I have chosen to not be a mentor. I do not hold myself up as an example to others, and practice exactly what I preach. Do you think I want to do extremes in a roulette? No! I don't even do extremes in a party finder anymore. I haven't done a single extreme since the beginning of ShB because of all the parties I got. It was a mess. Again, I'm not a mentor, and I don't queue for a roulette where I can get extremes!

Yay! We agree!



That sucks. Out of curiosity, is telling people to leave the system how you think we can actually make the system change?

Yeah, I stated several pages ago that the mentor system should be removed, I think in reply to one of your posts as well.

No, player nature won't allow it. Many players want the reward(s), and want the quickest way of attaining them. Even going as far as to 'farm' commendations from guildhests just to get their mentor crown faster. The only way the system would ever work is with constant oversight by SE, which I doubt would actually happen at the level required. Players who are acting contrary to what a mentor should be won't leave the system, whether it be for their achievement, their crown, or their NN chat. This is why complete removal of the system is the best alternative, in my opinion. As I have continued to state.

So players know that they can come to me for help. It does look kinda cool too, ngl. But my reason for becoming a mentor started somewhere else.

It was in Haukke Manor. Back then I didn't even know what a tank stance was. I was a complete fool, I asked for help and they would sarcastically shove me aside despite my plea for help. I knew that I can do better, and I took the greatest hardships to get where they are. I never saw them again, but I will never forget the day when I was so proud of myself to prove these people wrong. And then it hit me: I realized they were never right to begin with. It was my own will that turned me into a better player, and I realized even back then.. that these mentors existed. Hence the reason I wanted to make that difference among many of them.

It needs a change. But we also need to be more compassionate with everyone, lest we forget our reasons for becoming mentors in the first place.

Unfortunately, the crown hasn't been seen as something to look for for help in a long time. That's why I think players should simply be encouraged to ask anyone regardless if they are a mentor or not. The community is always touted as "great", for that matter. So I see no problem with that.

I appreciate the mentors that actually want to be a betterment for the community, but again, there are many who don't, and overshadow the 'good' ones. At the very least, we can usually all agree that there needs to be some changes to the system, if not a full removal, and I have given some suggestions myself there.

[Xirean]

I was going to edit this reply into my last post, but I'll just edit it in here.

A mentor isn't just another player, they are meant to be an example for others. That is what the system was, presumably, meant to be. Players helping players, and being rewarded for doing so. In a perfect world, it's a good system. A player can choose to not be a mentor, just as I have chosen to not be a mentor. I do not hold myself up as an example to others, and practice exactly what I preach. Do you think I want to do extremes in a roulette? No! I don't even do extremes in a party finder anymore. I haven't done a single extreme since the beginning of ShB because of all the parties I got. It was a mess. Again, I'm not a mentor, and I don't queue for a roulette where I can get extremes!

Yeah, I stated several pages ago that the mentor system should be removed, I think in reply to one of your posts as well.

No, player nature won't allow it. Many players want the reward(s), and want the quickest way of attaining them. Even going as far as to 'farm' commendations from guildhests just to get their mentor crown faster. The only way the system would ever work is with constant oversight by SE, which I doubt would actually happen at the level required. Players who are acting contrary to what a mentor should be won't leave the system, whether it be for their achievement, their crown, or their NN chat. This is why complete removal of the system is the best alternative, in my opinion. As I have continued to state.

Not to be rude, but that just sounds like giving up. However, humor me. If you want the system to be removed wholesale, why not just turn it into a Fill Roulette? No mentor status, no crown (maybe move it to some other icon reward system), where truly the "intended purpose" is just to fill empty slots?