Mentor abuse DC on purpose

[Shin96]

Why go after mentors in the first place? If your problems lie within the system itself, it makes absolute sense to critcise the system instead of the player. The people who have a problem with mentors are for the most part inexperienced and take their frustrations out on those they believe are responsible for them in the first place. Advice can only go so far, and there is a certain threshold of burden going hand in hand with your own performance as a player.

What do you do? Give advice to a spoiled brat with zero regards for you as a person, a player. Or to the ones asking kindly? I think the larger demographic hints towards the first, given how much vitriol you find perpetuated against mentors recently. The ones that have decided to dedicate themselves in helping other people. Judging by the posts in this thread you'd think this is a full-time responsiblity and there's little place for your own enjoyment. Seems narcissistic to me.

What you will find here are people virtue-signalling for brownie points and fishing for likes, because anything is more productive than being the better example of taking up the mantle of Mentorship and doing the hard, albeit required work of restoring the balance of trust within the playerbase. Why are you guys not creating FC's and Linkshells among a multitde of ways to help other people like I did? Because it's easer to cry like a baby than deal with the almost psychotic hate you get by simply existing as a mentor. And if you do help, why can you not afford the necessary levels of empathy when someone in your community gets harassed for absolutely nothing?

There was a girl I helped the other day. She got harassed in PF because people visibly hated her performance. Almost quit the game actually. I helped her, taught her the rotation for MCH to the best of my knowledge, bought Materia out of my own pockets, trying to calm her down, despite being stressed with a real life job. I could have said no of course, but they mattered to me, and the only reason I bring this up here is because all the assumptions against mentors are for the most part, based on the crown and not the personality associated with them, that's what I believe.

Again, asking for a rework in itself is not a problem. But when people get harassed for a few, that's when the alarm should be ringing. All of this seems like a witch hunt to me if anything really.

[SturmChurro]

Why go after mentors in the first place? If your problems lie within the system itself, it makes absolute sense to critcise the system instead of the player.

Again, asking for a rework in itself is not a problem. But when people get harassed for a few, that's when the alarm should be ringing. All of this seems like a witch hunt to me if anything really. The people who have a problem with mentors are for the most part inexperienced and take their frustrations out on those they believe are responsible for them in the first place.

I have never harassed a mentor, in fact I was the one harassed by several via whispers on my sprout alt, and kicked out of the Novice Network, for having the audacity of asking about properly reporting a "bad" mentor, and if SE actually enforces the guidelines for mentorship, many years ago... It is not inexperience, but from experience that I have formed the opinions that I and many others share. I (we) have bore witness to many mentors time and time again, put in less effort, and harass other players, and more for the past several years. This isn't some new occurrence, it just seems that recently, it has gotten more noticeable. Also, this thread is about mentor abuse specifically, so it makes sense for that to be talked about here.

I just wanted to say that I agree with everything you said. Also, people who keep bashing mentors, say that the mount should be removed, and/or suggest not queuing for the Mentor Roulette if you don't want to do extremes are pointless to argue with. I know this from experience since they've been saying the exact same thing in every single post about this matter and never once changed their views or listened no matter what arguments/logic/explanations/etc. people gave them.

You want the reward removed? Fine with me. I'd definitely run the Mentor Roulette a lot more if it didn't have Ex trials, and I'd certainly do that without the reward being involved. And if I want to help people with Ex trials, I'll hop into PF like I usually do.

I have been saying the same things about mentorship for years, and I think my arguments are sound, so I see no reason to change them. I have also addressed other viewpoints, such as a separated roulette for extremes. Without constant oversight by SE, and other aspects changed, the system just will never work out as intended, in my opinion. So, I think the best case scenario is for it to be removed. I have also not advocated for the mount to be removed from mentors who have already gotten it, but for it to be simply moved to another means of attaining it.

[Shin96]

-snip-

I've met alot of great mentors in my time, and I do play for a fair amount. The greatest people I've known with the richest stories to tell in how they decided to become mentors. Some of them sad, some of them happy, they all have reasons. So how come our stories do not match up? Or is it just because we choose to be ignorant? Or show our bias? In the end, there's no way to know for sure. I can only say I will continue to be a mentor, despite the removal of the crown. The crown is nice to have, but ultimately my reasons in being a mentor lie elsewhere. I'm sorry you got harassed, but even by changing a system.. the people perpetuating this unreasonable hate will want other things removed. That's why I have a strong stance against the removal of Mentorship; set a statement that we are allowed to take pride in who are. What people think about me or you is irrelevant, what matters is knowing who you are and nothing can change that.

No one, and I repeat: no one had been bashing/harassing any specific mentor who by all means have been doing the best they can. The only complaints was on the bad mentors who unfortunately pop up and are more vocal. Yes, it may not be fair that all mentors get pushed into one box, but until the system gets improved or removed, this will continue to be a problem. We can argue all day and night about it, but in the end nothing will change until the developers themselves intervene.

And while this is probably true for the most part, do not mistake that there genuinely are people just waiting to have reasons to do anything or stirr drama. Mentors can feel this change in the atmosphere quickly, we are becoming the new scapegoats. Live and let live. If I screw up in giving advice I take responsibility, but that is all that I can do.

[Vahlnir]

I've met alot of great mentors in my time, and I do play for a fair amount. The greatest people I've known with the richest stories to tell in how they decided to become mentors. Some of them sad, some of them happy, they all have reasons. So how come our stories do not match up? Or is it just because we choose to be ignorant? Or show our bias? In the end, there's no way to know for sure. I can only say I will continue to be a mentor, despite the removal of the crown. The crown is nice to have, but ultimately my reasons in being a mentor lie elsewhere. I'm sorry you got harassed, but even by changing a system.. the people perpetuating this unreasonable hate will want other things removed. That's why I have a strong stance against the removal of Mentorship; set a statement that we are allowed to take pride in who are. What people think about me or you is irrelevant, what matters is knowing who you are and nothing can change that.



And while this is probably true for the most part, do not mistake that there genuinely are people just waiting to have reasons to do anything or stirr drama. Mentors can feel this change in the atmosphere quickly, we are becoming the new scapegoats. Live and let live. If I screw up in giving advice I take responsibility, but that is all that I can do.

[SturmChurro]

I've met alot of great mentors in my time, and I do play for a fair amount. The greatest people I've known with the richest stories to tell in how they decided to become mentors. Some of them sad, some of them happy, they all have reasons. So how come our stories do not match up? Or is it just because we choose to be ignorant? Or show our bias? In the end, there's no way to know for sure. I can only say I will continue to be a mentor, despite the removal of the crown. The crown is nice to have, but ultimately my reasons in being a mentor lie elsewhere. I'm sorry you got harassed, but even by changing a system.. the people perpetuating this unreasonable hate will want other things removed. That's why I have a strong stance against the removal of Mentorship; set a statement that we are allowed to take pride in who are. What people think about me or you is irrelevant, what matters is knowing who you are and nothing can change that.

I have met some 'good' mentors too, but I have also met players who aren't mentors help just as much as those good mentors, and even more at times. It's just human nature to remember bad experiences more vividly. I have always held the opinion that a player doesn't have to be a mentor if they truly want to help other players, and be a good example. If you have removed your crown, but still 'mentor' then what is the purpose of the mentor system? It just further shows that there is no need of this system, at least not in it's current form.

The mentors who harassed me, might as well have laughed in my face, the way they talked. They joked that SE wouldn't do anything about it, and there was no point in reporting a bad mentor. That same day, I removed myself (my main) from mentorship, as I didn't want to be associated with a system that allows the sort of abuse that goes on so often.

[Xirean]

I have met some 'good' mentors too, but I have also met players who aren't mentors help just as much as those good mentors, and even more at times. It's just human nature to remember bad experiences more vividly. I have always held the opinion that a player doesn't have to be a mentor if they truly want to help other players, and be a good example. If you have removed your crown, but still 'mentor' then what is the purpose of the mentor system? It just further shows that there is no need of this system, at least not in it's current form.

Yay! We agree!

The mentors who harassed me, might as well have laughed in my face, the way they talked. They joked that SE wouldn't do anything about it, and there was no point in reporting a bad mentor. That same day, I removed myself (my main) from mentorship, as I didn't want to be associated with a system that allows the sort of abuse that goes on so often.

That sucks. Out of curiosity, is telling people to leave the system how you think we can actually make the system change?

[Shin96]

If you have removed your crown, but still 'mentor' then what is the purpose of the mentor system? It just further shows that there is no need of this system, at least not in it's current form.

So players know that they can come to me for help. It does look kinda cool too, ngl. But my reason for becoming a mentor started somewhere else.

It was in Haukke Manor. Back then I didn't even know what a tank stance was. I was a complete fool, I asked for help and they would sarcastically shove me aside despite my plea for help. I knew that I can do better, and I took the greatest hardships to get where they are. I never saw them again, but I will never forget the day when I was so proud of myself to prove these people wrong. And then it hit me: I realized they were never right to begin with. It was my own will that turned me into a better player, and I realized even back then.. that these mentors existed. Hence the reason I wanted to make that difference among many of them.

It needs a change. But we also need to be more compassionate with everyone, lest we forget our reasons for becoming mentors in the first place.

[Xirean]

I have never harassed a mentor, in fact I was the one harassed by several via whispers on my sprout alt, and kicked out of the Novice Network, for having the audacity of asking about properly reporting a "bad" mentor, and if SE actually enforces the guidelines for mentorship, many years ago... It is not inexperience, but from experience that I have formed the opinions that I and many others share. I (we) have bore witness to many mentors time and time again, put in less effort, and harass other players, and more for the past several years. This isn't some new occurrence, it just seems that recently, it has gotten more noticeable. Also, this thread is about mentor abuse specifically, so it makes sense for that to be talked about here.

That's just the "bad apples" analogy again. It's why it comes off as you (and others) as attacking mentors. The fact that this thread has "mentor" in the title is stupid imo. It's a player trying to avoid a penalty. Your story of mentors harassing you for trying to report another mentor is also just players harassing you. That's what I argue against. Mentors are just players with a stupid icon & false expectations put upon them. Nobody should ever try to lump all mentors together because mentors are not a collective. There's no group meeting about it. It's a bunch of separate people all with their own opinions about what it means. That's the basis of the entire problem with the mentor system. The very idea of "mentors shouldn't do X" is absurd. If someone is harassing you, report it. But stop expecting people who leveled 3 classes to cap and got some clears to somehow fit your definition of a better person.

[Eien713]

I have been saying the same things about mentorship for years, and I think my arguments are sound, so I see no reason to change them. I have also addressed other viewpoints, such as a separated roulette for extremes. Without constant oversight by SE, and other aspects changed, the system just will never work out as intended, in my opinion. So, I think the best case scenario is for it to be removed.

The thing is, what I mostly remember about your sound arguments is that you want mentors to carry and teach people because that's what it means to be a mentor. You demand way too much of mentors and refuse to admit that mentors aren't supposed to pick up the slack. They're just there to support. And one thing that strikes me as a contradiction is when you say that you don't give unsolicited advice. As a mentor, one of the roles in the screenshot you posted is to give gameplay advice. I suppose you'd be ok(?) with a mentor following in your footsteps by not giving unsolicited advice (even though giving advice is part of their "job" and a lot of people don't even know they need advice). After all, you also do this, and this is admittedly a way to protect oneself from the "you don't pay my sub" kind of people. In this case, what would be the problem with mentors wanting Ex trials to be removed from the roulette to preserve their sanity and save their time? It's the same self-preservation mindset.

I keep repeating that you seem to attach a mentor's value solely to Ex trials and carrying people through them, when mentors do and can be way more than just that. I have no issue with Ex trials themselves. My issue is with the people who queue for them, whether they're clueless and don't know any better, expect these trials to be a faceroll and bail when it turns out they need to actually make an effort, people who don't look up a guide beforehand (which saves time and spares a poor mentor from typing), or people who don't read chat or just can't follow instructions for whatever reason (in the latter case, PF would provide them with a better experience). I'll gladly spend 1 hour wiping in an Ex trial if people are trying their best and making an effort (though I'd ideally prefer to be mentally prepared for this beforehand, but oh well).

TLDR: Why are mentors the only ones burdened with responsibility when it comes to Ex trials? Why do people overlook the fact that the people queuing for those trials in DF are a huge part of the reason why things are the way they are now?


As for your arguments about mentors not displaying an exemplary behavior, I agree with you that mentors do have to be more careful than other players about what they say and that they should try to be a bit more patient than the regular player.

I have also not advocated for the mount to be removed from mentors who have already gotten it, but for it to be simply moved to another means of attaining it.

I never said you'd ever said this, though I also don't remember you saying the second part (but maybe my memory is failing me, unless you posted that while I was writing this reply).

[Reinha]

I have no issue with Ex trials themselves. My issue is with the people who queue for them, whether they're clueless and don't know any better, expect these trials to be a faceroll and bail when it turns out they need to actually make an effort, people who don't look up a guide beforehand (which saves time and spares a poor mentor from typing), or people who don't read chat or just can't follow instructions for whatever reason (in the latter case, PF would provide them with a better experience). I'll gladly spend 1 hour wiping in an Ex trial if people are trying their best and making an effort (though I'd ideally prefer to be mentally prepared for this beforehand, but oh well).

TLDR: Why are mentors the only ones burdened with responsibility when it comes to Ex trials? Why do people overlook the fact that the people queuing for those trials in DF are a huge part of the reason why things are the way they are now?

This!!

So I zone into Ramuh Ex, put a marker where we stand and tell the tanks to pick up 3 orbs to get a buff and provoke the boss when the MT doesn't have a buff. Simple, right? Everyone else, go to A when you get marked and others should hit you with one lighting ring. Also pretty simple. Well I guess not because the tanks are not touching any orbs, the dps are chilling in the water with the mind control mark and the rest are killing each other with aoe before we even get to add phase. And a mentor is somehow supposed to fix that.

It's so annoying when people expect the duty to just clear itself, although part of the blame should be put on the faceroll content new players are exposed to all the way until level 50. I'm perfectly fine with explaining things assuming people actually listen and immediately follow the advice given. Otherwise, please don't make me type all that for nothing. If you can't follow instructions written in the chat box, you haven't watched a guide and you aren't very good at figuring out mechanics on your own either, then what are you doing in the duty? Being dead most of the fight is getting carried just the same as doing it unsync.

Despite all the crying about WoW refugees ruining the game, ironically my extreme trials have actually been a lot better recently. Sprouts saying how they watched a guide and they actually know how to play and how to read chat. A 5-10 min extreme clear is great compared to a 20 min dungeon. I don't think I've ever seen 7 sprout groups play this well. FF players should take some notes, honestly.