A request for Endwalker Dungeons (No more Undertuned)

[Shurrikhan]

My experience was pretty rough with them when they were first released. I got through a fair number of them but it took a couple hours at least. Sometimes it took longer than that. It was quite the learning curve for a lot of people. Dealing with Wrath dungeons prior to Cata and the horrors they brought initially were like night and day. I'm always up for a bit of a challenge, but not at that cost. Dungeons, even heroics, should have never been that difficult.

Ahh, man, I'm just going to have to disagree with that one, I'm sorry to say. I loved Cata Heroics.

That said, I can understand why they'd be a bit much for some, even if I ended up even no-tanking or no-healing a few of them by the end, and commonly got through them even with DPS doing damage that'd have been slightly low even for a Normal mode run.

Granted, if they just hadn't allowed us to so overgear WotLK Heroics, I'd have been fine with them, too, even if the bulk of the difficulty back then was from people not knowing their rotations. The difference between their apparent difficulty on a fresh 80 and a year into WotLK were night and day, at least until the pre-ICC dungeon trio.

And Legion's Return to Karazhan was pretty brilliant, imo, when at-level. Mythic 0, especially.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

There was a time when some jobs didn't get an AoE until they reached level 40+, and the toolkits of members of an instance were such that one had to be a wee bit more careful about pulling large numbers of enemies. There was a time when the maximum iLevel was 130, and most people were happy to be sitting around 70 or 80. That was when mass pulling required awareness, which didn't stop tanks from ignoring things like "you know, if I have 9 mobs all doing their AoEs in this circle around me, perhaps the two melee DPS will die before they get a chance to whittle them down".

I dunno, I remember doing giant pulls at ilvl 90 in WP and AK back when there was only 2.0 and no patches.

You used to be able to do sub 15 minute WP runs that way.

And that's back when max ilvl was in fact, ilvl90.

[Shurrikhan]

I dunno, I remember doing giant pulls at ilvl 90 in WP and AK back when there was only 2.0 and no patches.

You used to be able to do sub 15 minute WP runs that way.

And that's back when max ilvl was in fact, ilvl90.

You could do it at min ilvl, even. Granted, WP used to be done with lock-out exploits and AK with sac runs.

[Payadopa]

Picture what you want, if people in a random queue system has hard content. That people do on a daily basis. Do you know how tedious that would be?

That is such a garbage excuse. Do you know how tedious dungeons are that are so easy? They are mind numbingly boring.

And hard dungeons would at least offer different mechanics. Easy dungeons offer no mechanics. You just stand in everything without a care in the world. Totally not tedious.

[Vahlnir]

Ahh, man, I'm just going to have to disagree with that one, I'm sorry to say. I loved Cata Heroics.

That said, I can understand why they'd be a bit much for some, even if I ended up even no-tanking or no-healing a few of them by the end, and commonly got through them even with DPS doing damage that'd have been slightly low even for a Normal mode run.

Granted, if they just hadn't allowed us to so overgear WotLK Heroics, I'd have been fine with them, too, even if the bulk of the difficulty back then was from people not knowing their rotations. The difference between their apparent difficulty on a fresh 80 and a year into WotLK were night and day, at least until the pre-ICC dungeon trio.

And Legion's Return to Karazhan was pretty brilliant, imo, when at-level. Mythic 0, especially.

I would have loved those heroics...if others were up capable of actually doing them. 99% of the time they were not, so I gave up out of frustration after awhile. It came down to whether the time investment was worth the effort or not. I personally felt it wasn't. Maybe it was just bad luck. Maybe it wasn't. My experiences were probably different from someone else's somewhere regardless.

[Fabbro]

You see, people say: it's got to be easy to appeal to casuals.
Well, there is easy, and then there is FFXIV easy...
You know what also appeals to a broad audience trying to appeal instantly to everyone? Call of Duty and Candy Crush. Good games, good MMOs specially, are and ACQUIRED taste, not something made to automatically appeal to everyone (which just results in ultimate lack of challenge and personality). FFXI thrived for years and years, even being one of the most popular MMOs at some point and it never needed to introduce braindead content in order to achieve that.

When your game is easier than WoW, you're doing something very wrong (talking about normal dungeons, open world content and solo play here).

Players whom like a challenge are basically forced to play trough hours of boring braindead autoplay content, it's really not fair at all. People want FFXIV to be like a cellphone game? Because that's what it slowly seems to be turning into now a days.

[Snorky]

Counterpoint. Dungeons are mandatory, and if you want your mandatory content to be the main content representing your game, you don't want it to be repetitive and dull. And after 8 years worth of dungeon content, the pretty reskins of the same dungeon format has gotten stale as hell.

"Interesting" doesn't have to mean "difficult." It just means shake up the format a little.

I would be much less likely to expect speedruns in my dungeons if getting the dungeon over with as fast as possible wasn't the most interesting interaction I could do with the instance.

Wouldn't it be awesome to have 3 different scenarios for dungeons set on random or even more? I don't think difficulty is the real problem. Making the same encounter on different maps or different reactions by the boss. Trash packs I could care less about. It would be a lot of work for the devs but I think it would be the first of it's kind.

[Vahlnir]

You see, people say: it's got to be easy to appeal to casuals.
Well, there is easy, and then there is FFXIV easy...
You know what also appeals to a broad audience trying to appeal instantly to everyone? Call of Duty and Candy Crush. Good games, good MMOs specially, are and ACQUIRED taste, not something made to automatically appeal to everyone (which just results in ultimate lack of challenge and personality). FFXI thrived for years and years, even being one of the most popular MMOs at some point and it never needed to introduce braindead content in order to achieve that.

When your game is easier than WoW, you're doing something very wrong (talking about normal dungeons, open world content and solo play here).

Players whom like a challenge are basically forced to play trough hours of boring braindead autoplay content, it's really not fair at all. People want FFXIV to be like a cellphone game? Because that's what it slowly seems to be turning into now a days.

The MMOs of the past simply don't work as well today. That is why you see more...evolved games which are typically a bit more casual all around. FF XIV is just that. It is the modern MMORPG incarnate, which sets itself apart from the rest by being an RPG with some MMO elements. WoW is stuck in the past more often than not. Legion was the most recent expansion where they got just about everything right. It had something for everyone. Then...well, things declined fast. Why? They were worried more about the time played metrics than making a fun game to play (which would have kept people in the game!). They also decided that the hardcore crowd was the most important, which alienated casual players everywhere. The last thing any company should want to do is alienate their core player base. SE does not do that with FF XIV, and that is easily the best thing they could do, especially right now. And they are doubling down on it like they always do. I'm all for some challenging content. I really am. But turning back the clock with content design will do more harm than good. This game was never hard to begin with though (ARR onward at least), even with playing most jobs, so I'm not really sure where people get this from. There is also content available for people to challenge themselves, aka Extreme, Savage and Ultimate. Either way, the time of the hardcore was over ages ago. It is best to adapt and move on. The devs know what type of game they want it to be, and they don't want it to be overly difficult in any way, shape or form for the majority of the player base (their core base). I used to raid pretty heavily in WoW. My hardcore days were behind me years ago. FF XIV is a good "retirement home" for me.

[Roda]

Wouldn't it be awesome to have 3 different scenarios for dungeons set on random or even more? I don't think difficulty is the real problem. Making the same encounter on different maps or different reactions by the boss. Trash packs I could care less about. It would be a lot of work for the devs but I think it would be the first of it's kind.

I've always had this thought of a dungeon that rotates between 4 different phases as opppsing factions rotate their claim on the area, while the fates around the entrance rotate with it. (Say week 1, faction A claims the territory and you are there to weaken their hold, week 2, faction B sieges it now that A is vulnerable and you are there to create chaos, week 3, B claims the area, and week 4 A attempts to retake it.) Allows for a lot of asset and mechanics reuse, but you get a different experience each week for a month because of how the mechanics overlap and interact.

[RitsukoSonoda]

I've always had this thought of a dungeon that rotates between 4 different phases as opppsing factions rotate their claim on the area, while the fates around the entrance rotate with it. (Say week 1, faction A claims the territory and you are there to weaken their hold, week 2, faction B sieges it now that A is vulnerable and you are there to create chaos, week 3, B claims the area, and week 4 A attempts to retake it.) Allows for a lot of asset and mechanics reuse, but you get a different experience each week for a month because of how the mechanics overlap and interact.

I'd kind of like sections in the general 4 player duties that don't feature a gimmick enemy blocking progress and just has groups of normal enemies to actually have random enemy spawns where the things that appear and the quantities of enemies could be different each time you did the duty.