Red Mage: Potential adjustments

[VictorTheed]

I'm kinda stuck in a dilemma.

Every expansion I play through the .0 story as a diff race/diff job, but lalafell and rdm are my favorites and if I do EW as both it'll be the only time I did a .0 story as same race/job as previous .0 story, been playing since ARR launch.

That rdm trailer looked awesome, I'm very happy with what I saw, I was all about reaper but I don't know now.

[Gruntler]

Even then, to be fair, I'm not sure why they don't make Verfire/Verstone also convert to Jolt (II) when there's no proc available

I think the reason is technical. The default would be Jolt II so there's no way to put it on your bar in such a way that it differentiates which Jolt II you mean to have as Verfire and which Verstone.

Given that Veraero and Verthunder already convert to Holy and Flare, respectively... well, now I just want to see single/AoE options of each as Verbanish/Verscourge for ST and Verholy/Verflare for AoE...

I think the intent now is just that they cleave, which I'm okay with. I can admit that, this implimentation, I'll be fine with just dumping AoE Blaps on dungeons with impunity. RDM is already rediculous here, I do not mind being Rediculawesome. I don't think RDM -needed- it, but if it makes some players giggle with delight while letting me melt trash I can't really complain. I'm just happy that it seems RDM isn't getting more buttons but it also doesn't seem to be losing tools either--but it's ending up evolving regardless.

And the new Verholy and Scorch do look *chef's kiss*

It really does. Riposte randomly having a higher cost than the other melee spenders still weirds me out just a bit, but I do love that we actually have some banking potential now. The Manafication change, too, is really, really nice. RDMshoten, basic and dull, sure, but it's still way better than the mess that was the MP-doubling effect.

Yeah, I.... i don't know what Riposte's role is going to be going forward. I can't help but wonder if our intended mobility going forward is accomplished by banking melee phases and slidecasting. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it got the purge. It's not like it's needed to keep from capping under 120 any more.

[Shurrikhan]

I think the reason is technical. The default would be Jolt II so there's no way to put it on your bar in such a way that it differentiates which Jolt II you mean to have as Verfire and which Verstone.

I guess I just figured they could sort of reverse it. For instance, the moment you acquire Verfire/Verstone, Jolt would be traited to no longer be attachable to one's hotbar, much like Flare/Holy, so you'd really have Verfire and Verstone, not Jolt (II) on your hotbars; it's just that Fire and Stone would each downgrade to Jolt (II) when their respective procs aren't active.

I think the intent now is just that they cleave, which I'm okay with. I can admit that, this implimentation, I'll be fine with just dumping AoE Blaps on dungeons with impunity. RDM is already rediculous here, I do not mind being Rediculawesome. I don't think RDM -needed- it, but if it makes some players giggle with delight while letting me melt trash I can't really complain.

I could have sworn we had a discussion about this earlier(?) -- granted, back then Moulinet couldn't charge the Flare/Holy combo.

But anyways, same. It's not as if we have any serious dungeon or otherwise particularly AoE-centric content anyways, and BLM and SMN each had expansions in which they were easily the kings of AoE, so I'm not going to begrudge RDM a night under the stage lights.

Yeah, I.... i don't know what Riposte's role is going to be going forward. I can't help but wonder if our intended mobility going forward is accomplished by banking melee phases and slidecasting. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it got the purge. It's not like it's needed to keep from capping under 120 any more.

It's not that I mind Riposte still existing, even if it forces out potential potency traps from its ramp up time and, as per any other combo, backloaded average ppgcd. I just feel like it's unintuitive and underutilized.

If there were to be uneven mana costs, I'd have thought we'd want Riposte to be the cheapest and Redoublement the most expensive so that the resultant ppgcd costs of shorter/clipped combos wouldn't be so damn high and, accordingly, Riposte could be used for modularity and banking. (Granted, that role was largely eaten up by Reprise, though I feel like that could easily be made a dynamic skill atop Riposte, to be used from outside melee range.)

Moreover, so long as we're going to have a sword on a caster... I'd like that sword and its skills to be more useful to our casting. For instance, what if any Enchanted melee skill procced Dualcast? That'd give us an actual occasional reason to use Enchanted Riposte outside of the full combo so it doesn't feel so lackluster during the leveling experience.

_________

Unrelated pipedream:

I'd really like to see Corps-a-corps and Displacement get the Gyoten/Yaten treatment. Have them cost 5 or 10 gauge but deal much higher potency (low effective potency cost relative to standard rotation, with CaC and Disp each getting buffed with Flare/Holy, +1 [Scorch] and +2 [Red Rune Railgun]), and have 3 shared charges on a fairly quick timer.

[SkyCake]

I'm kinda stuck in a dilemma.

Every expansion I play through the .0 story as a diff race/diff job, but lalafell and rdm are my favorites and if I do EW as both it'll be the only time I did a .0 story as same race/job as previous .0 story, been playing since ARR launch.

That rdm trailer looked awesome, I'm very happy with what I saw, I was all about reaper but I don't know now.

RDM looked the best to me. I'm all in for RDM and can't wait! I made a post that got some hate about RDM's AoE. But, from the looks of the LL, they pretty much fixed it and even (coincidentally) close to the way I wanted. The only change I'd want based on the LL and could easily change once Endwalker releases is 3 Enchanted Moulinets stills seems like too much. But, so much better than before. Can't wait!

[Rongway]

Riposte randomly having a higher cost than the other melee spenders still weirds me out just a bit,

Yeah, I.... i don't know what Riposte's role is going to be going forward. I can't help but wonder if our intended mobility going forward is accomplished by banking melee phases and slidecasting. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it got the purge. It's not like it's needed to keep from capping under 120 any more.

I believe you're talking about different things. It sounds like Gruntler meant Reprise, the cheap bladebeam attack for preventing overcaps when fixing procs or prepping for Manafication.

It was not shown in the job actions trailer, but that doesn't mean anything; half of our spells that we can be certain haven't been cut weren't shown in the trailer either. If Reprise is still in, its cost will probably have been reduced to 4|4 or 3|3, and, regardless of its cost, we would need to do a new cost/benefit analysis of it to determine the circumstances under which it's still an effective use of mana given EW potencies.


As for Shurrikhan's criticism of Riposte, it costs more than Zwerchhau and Redoublement as a penalty for failing to follow through. This could have similarly been accomplished more demonstrably with 30+10+10 costs, but 20+15+15 is far more lenient.

[Gruntler]

I guess I just figured they could sort of reverse it

I suppose that could work?

I could have sworn we had a discussion about this earlier(?)

Yeah. I'm still not 'for' more AoE stuff per se, but if it's there it's there and I'll get used to it. It's really more the ability to instantly manaficate at 10/10 and just go ham on the first pack in a dungeon that pleases me, cause then that melts pack 1 and leaves pack 2 for building meter for the boss while putting Embo and Manaf on cooldown. This is going to feel really good in dungeons so if people who want 7 AoE buttons are happy and it doesn't add button-bloat (my real concern), then I don't mind being wrong about this. Button bloat was really the core of my objection, so something that makes life fun for everyone else AND conserves buttonspace is a win for everyone.

But anyways, same. It's not as if we have any serious dungeon or otherwise particularly AoE-centric content anyways, and BLM and SMN each had expansions in which they were easily the kings of AoE, so I'm not going to begrudge RDM a night under the stage lights.

I mean, it's not like RDM isn't amazing at it now. Though it looks like BLM is getting a bit more power in its AoE kit as well.

I don't mind. I like melting mooks.

It's not that I mind Riposte

I meant Reprise, as Rongway caught. Appreciate the commentary

I'd really like to see Corps-a-corps and Displacement get the Gyoten/Yaten treatment.

I feel like that'd trip over the need to get 4 in manaf window.

T3 Enchanted Moulinets stills seems like too much.

3 Moulis is 60/60 but AoE guage generation is untouched. This changes your pre-manafication build to 10/10 instead of 50/50, which is literally just two dualcast pairs before you're diving in with your burst. So you're going in HOT at the start of the dungeon. Any additional guage is banked so if you spend the first pull casting to build gauge before the tank has things situated (as best as you can) you can then have work put towards the next pull as well. If you end up not using meter on the second pull, that's meter you WILL have for the boss, so it all works out.

It was not shown in the job actions trailer

Yeah, it's just we won't need a gauge dump to prevent overcapping, and we can bank melee phases for movement... so it's hard to say what the intended usecase for Reprise will turn into.

It might even just become a 'use it if you got extra' button. I dunno. I wouldn't be shocked if it got pruned and I wouldn't be shocked if it stayed. I prefer if it stayed though.

[Shurrikhan]

I feel like that'd trip over the need to get 4 in manaf window.

How do you mean?

That "need" is itself dependent on how Manafication works at present (damage buff and resets) and the whole idea of Corps-a-corps and Displacement (which I feel should lead more towards the sword feeling like an advantage, in the form of low-cost and very open mobility, rather than a fetter, per the current ppm -- which is itself, naturally, siphoned from everywhere else in the kit).

It's really more the ability to instantly manaficate at 10/10 and just go ham on the first pack in a dungeon that pleases me, cause then that melts pack 1 and leaves pack 2 for building meter for the boss while putting Embo and Manaf on cooldown.

Same. RDM dungeon-running in practice has always been a lot... clunkier than it has any need to be (e.g., in terms of its guiding design philosophy). This should really mostly replace that with just further sheer glee.

As for Shurrikhan's criticism of Riposte, it costs more than Zwerchhau and Redoublement as a penalty for failing to follow through. This could have similarly been accomplished more demonstrably with 30+10+10 costs, but 20+15+15 is far more lenient.

That's the thing, though. The punishment would already be sufficient, just due to (Enchanted) Riposte's very low ppgcd and longer-term rotational consequences, even if Enchanted Riposte cost the least.

By doubling down on that punishment/inefficiency, through both pathetic reward and heightened cost, they're really just making it a non-decision -- at best a trap that sits on your hotbar.

Why waste that space when you could instead have an integral, thematically-cohesive tool?


A good degree of punishment enhances complexity. When it squanders it (or its afforded cohesion or opportunities in a given kit), it's gone too far.

[SkyCake]

I kind of find it difficult to play current RDM now just because I'm so excited, ha.

Half-joking

[Gruntler]

Same. RDM dungeon-running in practice has always been a lot... clunkier than it has any need to be (e.g., in terms of its guiding design philosophy). This should really mostly replace that with just further sheer glee.

And I'm coming from a standpoint where I already really LIKE RDM's AoE blaps in ShB. Pop sprint, run apace with the tank, dive in onto their first target, backflip FORWARD, and use that to start casting to get some resources during the run to the next pack and the wall... this is already a delight to do, and the ability to just straight go in with orbital death laser is going to be absolutely deeeeelightful.

Tanks are going to hate it though.

Sudden thought: What if the new 3-charge system means that Verfloly is no longer a combo action? I don't see a timer on those red lozenges, so that might actually mean we can end a pull with swordswishes but bank it into immediately Orbital Death Laser->crackWUBWUBWUB->Verbloosh once the next back is settled. Or just unload on a boss...

I just... my brain can't handle the quality of life on display here.

[Shurrikhan]

Sudden thought: What if the new 3-charge system means that Verfloly is no longer a combo action? I don't see a timer on those red lozenges, so that might actually mean we can end a pull with swordswishes but bank it into immediately Orbital Death Laser->crackWUBWUBWUB->Verbloosh once the next back is settled. Or just unload on a boss...

I just... my brain can't handle the quality of life on display here.

Now that, tanks would definitely hate.