to Future DRK Players

[bundythenoob]

I've been doing a lot of thinking, and after several nights of mulling it over, I will be the first to admit... I'm not strong enough to continue the fight.


I'm not strong enough to continue fighting for a """better future""", in a game in which the developers do not care about the opinions of players like me. I'm not strong enough to continue playing the current iterations of my favourite jobs in a game that broke the gameplay identity of the jobs I loved the most. I'm not strong enough to continue supporting a game in which the developers do not use the money to hire more competent development staff that actually WANTS to design and improve the content which I subscribe to support.

Regardless, what I DO believe is important is to implore everyone who wants to continue to fight, to keep fighting for that better future. I know many of the new players nowadays are WoW players, and I too was once a WoW player. I know you guys are enjoying the game, because to you guys, Shadowbringers is your WoW Vanilla, just as A Realm Reborn was my Burning Crusade; however, without having a Heavensward/WoTLK to look forward to bringing something new to the table, what else lies in the future? Just know that from the humble opinion of your average player, this xpac was the Cataclysm of the game, and Endwalker will be the MoP of the game. if any of you wish to avoid a second coming of those events in this game's future, consider continuing the fight for those of us who no longer have the strength to do so.

I know that most of you newer players do not have the context of the older DRK playstyle that so many of us veterans yearn to return to, so to a outsider, all of this may seem like a bunch of people whining about how their job didnt get any changes.
If theres one thing that WoW players ABSOLUTELY have the context for, its that having your jobs gameplay identity butchered feels really disheartening, demotivating, and even demoralising to the point where you feel like your only choice is to quit playing this game that you've become hopelessly addicted to. I'm sure it's something nobody coming from WoW wants to happen to other games, especially if its the whole reason you left Azeroth in the first place.

As a selfish final request to the future DRKs, you guys should definitely not accept this from the developers, especially given what you guys have seen and been through firsthand. What you should fight for, is to bring back empowering decision making and a semblance of actual resource management for the job whose gameplay identity revolved around spending your mana to empower your abilities depending on the situation. What you should fight for is a DEDICATED TANK DEVELOPER who actually takes into account the gameplay and issues of the TANK JOBS. I mean, with all this incoming sub money, why not hire a dedicated Tank and healer dev to fix the problems, and let the DPS devs handle their DPS jobs problems?

It's not like its even that hard to do so anyway with the current skeleton. hell, most of us here thought they would come to some sort of agreement and compromise for 6.0 DRK. here's a list of a few simple changes you can fight for that shouldn't be too hard to implement onto 5.x DRK:

• move Blood Weapon to the same level as Flood of Darkness so you can spend and earn mana at the same time. make it 30s cooldown so you can actually build more than 3k mana/min
  
  
• move Stalwart Soul to lv 40 so you aren't relying on spamming unleash in between mana dry spells for the foreseeable 60 levels
  
  
• move TBN to a lower level, around maybe lv 45 or so, then upgrade it at lv 70 to allow new DRKS to learn to actively mitigate earlier
  
  
• make Abyss Drain a spender on par with Flood/edge to give some gameplay variety.
  hell even just giving it another charge if you're unable to balance the mana cost and potencies (cough cough Square Devs)
  
  
• allow Delirium to give you at least enough mana back for you so you can use a flood/edge/abyss, especially considering its now 3x BS/Quietus spam
  
  
• make Salted Earth generate up to 50 blood for an additional quietus/bloodspiller, as it stands the skill is so forgetful that even a "placed where you use it" buff won't make it better
  
  
• make Living Shadow either copy your rotation 1:1 or make it give you resource for every action it takes (its Abyssal Drain heals you, its BS/Quietus restore your mana)
  
  
• make TBN's """DARK ARTS""" empower some abilities with a buff or additional effect, to give you the choice of spending for DPS during bursts or to help against that tankbuster/raidwide during prog
  

[bundythenoob]

the fight for the future is up to you guys. I'll be leaving my character in Coerthas Western Highlands, to be immortalised as one of the DRKs of eld, only remembered by those who bothered to look into why DRK players gave up the fight. I hope someday the new DRK playerbase gets something better than what they have now, because knowing WoW players, you guys will not be as forgiving on the devs as we once were.

[Shin96]

To see it anything like a fight is an unhealthy way to do it. If anything it should be seen as documentation for the state the job is currently in; the more complaints, the better. It's one way to understand the current pathology of what's plaguing the job.

Problem is most new players simply have no frame of reference and you can't blame them for it either. When you start playing a game you don't exactly look for reference for what it used to be, instead you do your best to enjoy the experience overall. Anything else seems outlandish to me. Eventually even the new players will ask for more, it's only a matter of time.

They can do alot by removing Delirium or reworking it. Integrate synergy between actions that doesn't involve once in a lifetime activation of EoS/FoS to maintain a lazy attempt at Dark Arts. Make it interesting. Allow for versatility and give players enough to work with so they are not underwhelmed. Make a good distinction between DRK and all 3 other tanks. Living Shadow has literally no interaction with the toolkit and that's incredibly disappointing. The leveling experience needs to involve more actions at an earlier level. I believe DRK's journey to its glory days will take one or two expansions unfortunately.

[bundythenoob]

Problem is most new players simply have no frame of reference and you can't blame them for it either. When you start playing a game you don't exactly look for reference for what it used to be, instead you do your best to enjoy the experience overall. Anything else seems outlandish to me. Eventually even the new players will ask for more, it's only a matter of time.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, and its the reason i'm asking the new players to continue the fight (or maybe it should be to begin a new chapter and begin their own fight?)

as much as I and many others want the old DRK (and SCH) none of the new players have any context as to what "more skill based" or "active decision making" that means, as you said.

but they DO have context on what 5.0 DRK was like, the problems it faced, and the challenges it could overcome with a few tweaks to its kit
so to see no new changes come to the job feels like both a slap in the face to both the new players who may have been waiting for new abilities and some much needed balance changes,
and a kick in the nads to veteran players who may have expected something more than a needless follow up to a gap closer and a message about "not wanting to follow the complexity of 3.0 series".

[EmpyreanHelios]

It was only when I started playing the other tanks that I realized something was seriously wrong with the job.

"Y'all get your second aoe at what level?!!"

It's really laughable that they put Stalwart Soul at level 72 and thought that was okay.
Spamming that one AOE gives me healer ptsd.

[Sazuzaki]

The leveling experience needs to involve more actions at an earlier level. I believe DRK's journey to its glory days will take one or two expansions unfortunately.

I agree with this. It may not seem like it now, but I do fully believe DRK will get there in the future, It's just a matter of time.
DRK is in no way a well designed class right now. I'll just list everything that sucks about it:

*It's only engaging mechanic is TBN, which even itself is unsatisfying to use when you really think about it. It's just a delayed EoS/FoS.
*Darkside timer is really just a useless indicator that wastes space on your HUD.
*The entire rotation lacks any kind of decision making aside from TBN.
*The only cool mechanic about the class is unlocked at lvl 70.
*Delirium is a hot piece of trash right now with a VERY simple fix.
*I would list more but there's just a lot.

The few good things about it currently:
*The aesthetic
*Edge of Shadow is better than spamming Dark Arts I suppose, but still lots of room for improvement.

BUT, on the brighter side, it can only go up from here. I think over time, they'll realize that what we have right now is no better than the Stormblood DRK we had back then. Samurai was in a shit spot during SB, but look at it now. I never see a static without one. Same thing with DRG. In the end, it'll come back I think, at least the gameplay part of it. Could even get lucky and have some changes during the patches, but I might be overdosing on copium a little. I'm not asking for HW or SB DRK, I'm asking for a good middle ground between 3.0 and 5.0 DRK. You can make a class simple yet fun to play; like GNB for example.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

I've been doing a lot of thinking, and I will be the first to admit, I'm not strong enough to continue the fight.

I'm not strong enough to continue fighting for a "better future", in a game in which the developers do not care about the opinions of players like me. I'm not strong enough to continue playing the current iterations of the jobs in a game that broke the jobs I loved the most. I'm not strong enough to continue supporting a game in which the developers do not use the money to hire more competent staff to help design the content which I subscribe to support.

Regardless, what I DO believe is important is to implore everyone who can continue to fight, to keep fighting for a better future. I know many of the new players nowadays are WoW players, and I too was once a WoW player. I know you guys are enjoying the game, because to you guys, Shadowbringers is your WoW Vanilla, just as A Realm Reborn was my Burning Crusade; however, without having a Heavensward/WoTLK to look forward to bringing something new to the table, what else lies in the future?
Just know that from the humble opinion of your average player, this xpac was the Cataclysm of the game, and Endwalker will be the MoP of the game. if any of you wish to continue the fight, be my guest.

only Unto death will we part, when our life is torn apart, then at the end of all days... Lest fate spare us, with a kinder gaze.

...I am not.. 100% certain yet, but I do feel similar... I already did abandon Dark Knight a few months ago, and my naïve hope had been that 6.0 would redeem the Dark Knight for me. But then the 66th Live Letter said that people like me are the sacrifice, and that what we think of as Dark Knight, will not be Dark Knight... Now, I plan to just wait for.. and see for myself, every tooltip of every action that Dark Knight will have in EndWalker, and only then decide if I will upgrade from my decision to abandon Dark Knight, to then complete abandon Dark Knight...

If I do complete abandon Dark Knight at the end, then I will return to this thread and post my own letter message to future Dark Knight players...

That aside...

If theres one thing that you future DRKs should fight for, its to bring back empowering decision making and a semblance of actual resource management for the job. It's not like its even that hard to do so anyway.

a few simple changes you can fight for:

• move Blood Weapon to the same level as Flood of Darkness so you can spend and earn mana at the same time
  
• move Stalkwart to lv 40 so you arent relying on spamming unleash in between mana dry spells
  
• make Abyss Drain a spender on par with Flood/edge to give some gameplay variety.
  hell even just giving it another charge if you're unable to balance the mana cost and potencies (cough cough Square Devs)
  
• allow Delirium to give you at least enough mana back for you so you can use a flood/edge/abyss, especially considering its now 3x BS/Quietus spam
  
• make Salted Earth generate up to 50 blood for an additional quietus/bloodspiller, as it stands the skill is so forgetful that even a "placed where you use it" buff won't make it better
  
• make Living Shadow either copy your rotation 1:1 or make it give you resource for every action it takes (its Abyssal Drain heals you, its BS/Quietus restore your mana)
  
• make TBN's "DARK ARTS" empower some abilities with a simple buff, to give you the choice of spending for DPS or to help against that tankbuster/raidwide during prog

For Blood Weapon... If even 6.0 fails to fix that half-broken action, then Dark Knights will need to continue to complain about Blood Weapon, until it finally receives some manner of fix. As for whether or not to make blood Weapon and Flood of Darkness unlock at the same level... It would be nice, in AoE situations, since the only MP under Lv35 is Syphon Strike, and you will not use that in AoE situations, unless you juggle single target with Flood of Darkness and pretend like Unleash does not exist; but other than that, Since Flood of Darkness unlocks at Lv30, and Blood Weapon straight after, at Lv35, it may or may not be fine as it is...

For Stalwart Soul, here is my own analysis of that: continue to complain about that its unlock level is Lv72, as this is terrible. When I look at our action list, I think that Stalwart Soul should drop from Lv72 to lv45, move Dark Mind from Lv45 to Lv52, and move Salted Earth from Lv52 to Lv72, but only in the case of if the level pattern absolute has to be upheld, to the detriment and non-convenience of the Dark Knight.

For Abyssal Drain, it needs to self-heal against a single target better, at the least.

For Delirium... I advise that Dark Knights continue to complain about it, as ShB Delirious Inner Release is the worst Delirium... To be honest, SB Delirium was the superior design concept, and ShB Delirious Inner Release way the inferior, but SB Delirium.. despite the good concept, had a bad implementation. It would restore MP and buff actions that restore MP, to restore more MP, but it was too strong... too much MP restoration, so it was often a partial waste. I think that EW Delirium should be SB Delirium, with the issue that SB delirium had fixed.

also, have a quote, as this was not a bad idea for Delirium...

Delirium allows for free Edge of Shadows/Flood of Shadows instead of Bloodspiller/Quietus. This would make make it less of an Inner Release, more of an actual Delirium that would fit DRK as the oGCD tank.

Last.. For Salted Earth, it just need to go back to what it used to be... higher damage and lower CD, since the ground-target issue is already to be dealt with, in EW.

[Kniteroad]

I wholeheartedly agree with this, and its the reason i'm asking the new players to continue the fight (or maybe it should be to begin a new chapter and begin their own fight?)

as much as I and many others want the old DRK (and SCH) none of the new players have any context as to what "more skill based" or "active decision making" that means, as you said.

but they DO have context on what 5.0 DRK was like, the problems it faced, and the challenges it could overcome with a few tweaks to its kit
so to see no new changes come to the job feels like both a slap in the face to both the new players who may have been waiting for new abilities and some much needed balance changes,
and a kick in the nads to veteran players who may have expected something more than a needless follow up to a gap closer and a message about "not wanting to follow the complexity of 3.0 series".

I want nothing more than to have the old DRK playstyle back. I have abandoned DRK shortly after SHB release as, like a lot of you, never got the same sense of satisfaction and completeness that i did before. I think the reason we didn't see much change is because if you look at the numbers of which tank is played the most, the answer is DRK. No matter how much a lot of us veterans complain, the numbers SE sees is that DRK is popular and therefore "good" in it's current state. Where I do see hope is that WAR, PLD, and GND got some really stylish and fun looking abilities (IMO) from the job action trailer so if they start seeing a large drop in DRK mains, then they might finally start taking a second look in the 6.x series.

[AnotherPerson]

It was only when I started playing the other tanks that I realized something was seriously wrong with the job.

"Y'all get your second aoe at what level?!!"

It's really laughable that they put Stalwart Soul at level 72 and thought that was okay.
Spamming that one AOE gives me healer ptsd.

It's not that bad. You still have Flood of Shadow (oGCD AoE), Salted Earth (oGCD DoT AoE), and Quietus (Gauge AoE), so the AoE rotation gets fairly fleshed out.

Now this is the real healer PTSD: Just having Unleash from lv 10 to 80.

[Sazuzaki]

I'm glad there are people who actually care about this job. I've mostly been seeing nothing but praise for it from the action trailer, but what is there to be excited for...

Really? I've seen an equal amount of very disappointed people as well