About New Players level skipping Healers and Tanks

[AlyaNimfa]

So as others have pointed out. Mentors are not the answer. They already get loads of crap for things everyone thinks they should do.

The main thing I find hilarious in this is that people say mentors are terrible but yet you want to add more responsibilities to them to improve the game? That's some logic there.

No, I was actually commenting on a mentors attitude toward players who are still learning. Personally I read up about this game before I started, and read in a lot of places not to join the Novice Network for similar reasons. I didn't, so pleased I made that choice. I think they need to scrap the whole mentor thing, and make it opt in only, and moderated. My opinion is the wrong people are mentors.

I've never seen a Mentor get "loads of crap", I've heard of them being at war with each other though. As it stands, I don't think I'd ever seek out one for advice, and that's a sad thing.

[Illmaeran]

People who use level skips, not just tank and healer classes, should be required to do all Guildhests at least 5 times, all class quests, and all MSQ Dungeons, fully synched, at least twice before losing "Sprout". I understand the desire to level boost these days, but I also agree with the OP; when people skip they miss out on the training inherent to playing the game from start to the point they reach when boosting. Even though I haven't leveled a tank or healer past 52, I've inherently learned the basics of high-level tanking just by being aware of what the tanks are doing in dungeons, etc. I know DPS have positionals that need to be accounted for and certain classes like BLM like to stay in one place as much as possible so I would need to accommodate them as much as possible when tanking - it's called team work.

[LianaThorne]

Simple answer:
Vote Kick. Tell them to go back to the 15-70 dungeons to learn and kick. Get a new healer/tank. The end.

No one owes anything to people who level skip and they absolutely should not be handheld through the content at that level. I've level skipped and took my time through the older dungeons to learn my skills. It's not hard.

[Axxion]

Many are players that are not mentors as well. Stop with the mentor bashing. Its absurd.

they might have forgotten the /s

[nebby00]

People who use level skips, not just tank and healer classes, should be required to do all Guildhests at least 5 times, all class quests, and all MSQ Dungeons, fully synched, at least twice before losing "Sprout". I understand the desire to level boost these days, but I also agree with the OP; when people skip they miss out on the training inherent to playing the game from start to the point they reach when boosting. Even though I haven't leveled a tank or healer past 52, I've inherently learned the basics of high-level tanking just by being aware of what the tanks are doing in dungeons, etc. I know DPS have positionals that need to be accounted for and certain classes like BLM like to stay in one place as much as possible so I would need to accommodate them as much as possible when tanking - it's called team work.

Exactly. There needs to be something mandatory for people who boost. If you're going to skip the learning process that happens from 1 - 70, you need to be prove that you know how to properly heal/tank/DPS. Do you know your positionals? Do you know how to use your healing kit to its fullest? Do you know how to tank properly? All of these things must be shown that you know how to do them at a basic level to be able to access Shadowbringers content. Of course, I don't expect people to be completely excellent all of the time and have the top percentage of damage; but I do expect people to have some basic understanding of mechanics and how to use their job properly for them to be able to participate in team based content.

But there are people who are just too lazy and expect to be carried through content, who don't want to learn their class and doesn't bother to put in effort. Those people are the ones I have issue with, and most of the player base does too. Not all people who boost are going to be inherently bad, since there are some who look up guides before going into content, but a lot of people don't bother to even do that much and wind up eating the floor or wiping the entire party.

And again, like people had said before, the solution is to vote kick and get someone else if they either don't respond to you asking them to use their toolkit, or leave. I usually never leave though and try to explain things to the person who is struggling... which mostly results in silence or them saying they feel too lazy to. Very rarely do I get people who are actually thankful for the advice, so I mostly stay silent until I absolutely have to speak up.

[ItMe]

168 hours is the same amount of time Sprouts keep their newbie status (on top of reaching ShB). Level Skip people are new people that throw themselves into the last stretch of the game, skipping all tutorials and learning curve, thus in heavy need of mentoring.

Ah, I see. That's kinda clever.
Though don't you need to fulfil 2 criteria to stop being a sprout? Play for over 168 hours and pass a certain point in Stormblood?

Mentors are supposed to mentor Sprouts aka new players. If they drop it because they are more frequently grouped with new players then they weren't doing it to mentor new players, they were doing it for l33t cool horsey boi.

That's true. But I think you're still gonna run into problems.

If these tagged players can only get matched with each other and mentors they're gonna get exhausted by the waves of unsolicited advice the mentors give them.

This would also mean that in the mentor roulette there is a higher concentration of players you can help, and the game is telling mentors now more clearly that you are here to help them. That's gonna lead to burnout for both parties. And if mentors stop queing for the mentor roulette as much (and if there is a large exodus of mentors), then these tagged / newer players are gonna start seeing some pretty ugly que times.
All thanks to a system that is trying to force information onto them, risks new players not sticking with it, and cannot guarantee that by the end of it these players will have listened or learned and be better off for it when you can't force someone to learn or improve.

Should there be something to teach people who just boost to the end?
Probably, but I don't think this is it.

This is not a "casuals git gud" topic. Please, stop trying to veer the topic into that direction.

Yes, it is not.
I was not trying to steer it in a "git gud" direction.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought your problem was that people were skipping to endgame / skipping tutorials and thus rendered unable to pull their own weight. I got that mainly from here where you say grouping with these people is "punishing:"

Both veteran and new players that leveled through normal means should not be punished with either 80 minutes dungeon runs or 30 minutes penalty when queueing for non-Mentor roulettes and getting matched with Tanks or Healers that either die doing single mob group pulls, or die to basic mechanics like stacks or dontstandinorange because they thought they were above the learning curve.

[Jirah]

The game does a crap job at level skip stuff in general being you get a tank at 60 and a healer at 70.

I predict a lot of bad SAG players

[Mikey_R]

So, you want this sort of thing put on Tanks and Healers, but not DPS? I find that it is the DPS that don't know what they are doing that makes fights take longer, not necessarily the Tanks/Healers.

This all a case of poeple not taking the time to learn their job before going into an instance, this goes for Tanks/Healers and DPS. You mention all the different markers, about positioning etc. these are all things that a DPS need to learn as well and excluding them from your 'mandatory training period' just shows that people don't care about a DPS' performance, when, infact, it is just as important. The issue is you cannot really tell who isn't pulling their weight, though you can tell something is wrong when things die slowly (and yes, do enough content and you can tell).

In short, if you want to impose some sort of restriction on Tanks and Healers, it must also apply to DPS as well.

[MintnHoney]

I actually agree with the OP, but I think, rather than just marking the new, level-skipped characters as being "new characters who skipped levels" and forcing them to play with novices, I believe it would be more beneficial for the dev team to create a mandatory "training" instance that the player must goes through upon playing a level-skipped class/character for the first time. This training instance would teach all of the basic combat mechanics and markers (aoe and otherwise), and players would not be allowed to skip or leave the instance to join the normal world without completing the each "mission" within (e.g., "Successfully stack with your "party" for the Stack AOE marker," "Successfully use an Auto-Attack," and "Avoid being pushed off the ledge").
This instance should take less than 10 minutes to complete, far less than that if the player truly knows what they're doing.
Similar to the Novice Network, but just a single instance and not specific to the class or role.

Perhaps, one day, the team can introduce job-specific tutorials, similar to what PSO2 (not NGS) provides, and incorporate that as an optional experience as well (because at least where healers are involved, there's generally a massive disconnect between what Yoshi and his team want the players to do and what healers actually do, so the tutorial could be a waste of time (although, on the other hand, perhaps making such a tutorial would force them to learn more about the jobs and help them to develop them better...)), but, to be honest, time and experience are really the only way players, new and old, can determine how to improve upon the play of their chosen class.

[SenorPatty]

Poster above has the right idea. Better to simply make boosted players (new ones) go through a training zone before they can queue for DF.