Can we finally get real content / gameplay?

[dreamfisher]

If i would dislike the game that much ...

Thanks for the clarification!
When it comes to combat, I consider myself a pretty casual player. Yet, I strongly agree with you on all points, here.

Interesting dungeon ideas. Remind me of a few things:
- Alternate routes for treasure: Brayflox's Longstop
- Optional side bosses: Halitali (kind of)
- Crafter/Gatherer thing is unprecedented, but that's something I've always wanted.
There are so many unique elements in ARR. I even remember having to spam Haukke Manor and take side routes to get varnish for the instrument furniture, and how much fun large pulls were in Brayflox HM.

Though now I've thought of something cursed: A jump/platforming puzzle inside a dungeon.

With regard to FATEs, I kind of liked when they were a part of the ARR relic, but even back then, I disliked their inclusion in the Crystal Tower questline. It was a bit more novel, at least, at the time.
And while I'll refrain from commenting on the raid stuff, I liked the example of Ramuh. It was the example that came to my mind, too!

From what I've seen, the consensus is that the class homogenisation/simplification/etc is actually a problem. I don't expect them to reverse their direction with job design, but I'm still hoping for it. I guess we'll know soon enough!

The other thing that ties all of this together, though, seems to be a lack of experimentation. We've listed so many mechanics that were sort of just... Tried in ARR and then nothing like them was revisited in later iterations of the game.
I would absolutely love to see them try thinking outside the box, even if it means it's not well-received.
This applies to the overworld, too. It feels like they took two of the systems in ARR (FATEs and hunts) and decided those were just enough to carry every other expansion.

In short, I think so many complaints would be addressed with some experimentation, as long as that experimentation didn't detract from the core experience of the game— an issue with certain innovations seen in other games.
I'd love to be proven wrong, but I do kind of worry that 6.X will just be more of the same.

All that said, I do still think there's a ton to love in the game. It's at least a very polished sort of repetition, and I still personally enjoy it — except healing. I don't currently enjoy healing.

[RokkuEkkusu]

So what exactly are you trying to get out of this game? It's obvious that the FFXIV devs aren't going to change much in a very small amount of time after the FFXIV 1.0 disaster.

I really like this game, it has a lot stuff in its world, great graphics and a good storyline. But gameplay and content - wise it´s getting worse and worse. It feels like the devs just want to give us fast content over quality ones.

The world

While the world in ARR is well thought and more filled with life, it´s going downhill with the expansions. We´ve 6 big terrains to explore, but there isn´t much to explore.
All we do is a questline and running from one wind-ether to another. Yes some maps still look beautiful, but that´s it. They´re pretty empty and loveless designed. We just move through them and might come back for tons of stupid FATE-grind or Hunts.


Dungeons

The probably biggest thing i´m dissapointed about are dungeons. While even here the early ARR dungeons still has multiple pathes, some little ideas or secret rooms, all of them are "no efford - content".
You just pull your 2 packs of adds 2 times, then you beat a boss and repeat this 2 times. The only way to wipe is with a newcomer heal who don´t know what his buttons do.

Shadowbringers at this time put a nail on them for me once again. All the Loot has become totally worthless unless you want to farm that specific BIS gear for ultimates. But it´s no fun or challenging.
Bosses has become even more simplified and thanks to a bunch of reworks (especially tanks) you can run them down halfblind lefthanded.

Dungeons are a core-aspect of any MMORPG, but i can´t see any enjoyment here. The quality in their design doesn´t exist and some hardcore endgame dungeons to get our gear for the first raids aren´t a thing.

Other games do it a way better. There are some normal dungeons with better gear than your current level is. They´ve hardcore dungeons with pets or mounts for those who beat the challenge. Even random chests are still useful.
I do even know some where crafter jobs can open secret pathes or activate NPC´s who help you. Or you´ve a sidequests in the dungeon with a bonusboss in the end, maybe even different bosses per run, based on the players decisions.
Such stuff brings way more enjoyment than the named "pull as much adds as you can, beat the boss, repeat" - cycle.


Raids

Raids should be a challenge, but they´re no challenge anymore. It´s all about stack/spread mechanics or to avoid an aoe. CC and silence, which are sadly the last existend tools, have become super rare.

The only real challenge we´ve is, that ALL of the 8 players have to play mechanics clear or it´s a wipe. It isn´t a great design when 7 players always rely on that 8. player to move to a marker or something.
Yes we´re a group, but the game should challenge the players in a good way to find solutions or strategies against all the issues the current party has. But this is not really possible when the whole challenge is to remind where you´ve to move at mechanic X. As we all know it goes even so far, that Raidbots are well presented in FF14 especially in ultimate.

The game could need a better design here and more possibilities on all the classes. Give us something to do, bosses we can grow at. 2 or even more bosses at once, tanks / dps who need to kite and no instawipe because someone failed when the rest of the party is able to handle it with timed cooldowns or smart decisions.

Let's remember that quite a bit of players do not care for going for side/optional paths back in ARR dungeons. Sastasha and Toto-Rak being the biggest examples here. That is why the devs and some players are content with the straight-path dungeon design for most of Heavensward and on.

I am pretty sure you raid Coils, Savages, and/or Ultimates. If you remember turn 7 (Melusine), people tend to use BRD/SMN for kiting the Cyclops mobs. While people enjoyed turn 7 pre-nerf, the following link shows that the devs thought a few aspects of it is something that they probably will not do in the future:

https://gamerescape.com/2016/12/29/f...panel-summary/

As a result, most fights end up being focusing on DPS rotations and resolving mechanics as usual in various ways in high-end content, especially after Gordias (Savage) happened.

Judging by the typical development schedule, FFXIV devs believe in the saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" most of the time. [points to various criticisms against Final Fantasy XIII Trilogy, Final Fantasy XIV 1.0, and arguably Final Fantasy XV].

[ssunny2008]

snip

As i´ve already said, of course noone takes care about optional pathes when it´s poorly done, you don´t get some rewards for challenges, whatever. But to say "ppl don´t want it", when it´s rewarding, challenging or even give options to assist your team for the rest of the dungeon, maybe rare materials, why wouldn´t ppl want to repeat it?

And well, having strong end content which might need a nerf is in all cases better than walking simulations or raids which are getting cleared within the first day by elite-groups.

Not to say that ppl, who actually enjoyed one or another mechanic, probably never show up like "oh cool, please more of this", meanwhile others came with the "too hard, pls nerf" argument immediately.

The game doesn't need a radical change. There are plenty of other options elsewhere for other types of gameplay. Play those.

It´s no radical change to make more use out of everything gameplay-wise or to give us overall more interesting content than repeating fates / ally raids or whatever dozens of times. It´s just not lazy.

[RokkuEkkusu]

As i´ve already said, of course noone takes care about optional pathes when it´s poorly done, you don´t get some rewards for challenges, whatever. But to say "ppl don´t want it", when it´s rewarding, challenging or even give options to assist your team for the rest of the dungeon, maybe rare materials, why wouldn´t ppl want to repeat it?

And well, having strong end content which might need a nerf is in all cases better than walking simulations or raids which are getting cleared within the first day by elite-groups.

Not to say that ppl, who actually enjoyed one or another mechanic, probably never show up like "oh cool, please more of this", meanwhile others came with the "too hard, pls nerf" argument immediately.




It´s no radical change to make more use out of everything gameplay-wise or to give us overall more interesting content than repeating fates / ally raids or whatever dozens of times. It´s just not lazy.

Let's see the typical reward structure: gil, gear, tomes, minions, and mounts. If people want to make use of their rewards, great. If people take their rewards for granted and/or not seize opportunities for rewards, that is their problem. Even if the devs were to put these rewards in the side paths, most wouldn't even care for them because they just wanna clear the content first and foremost.

After the damaging reputation Gordias (Savage) has made for high-end raiding, the devs aren't gonna change their raiding fights much for Extreme and Savage levels. People want to enjoy their game first and foremost. Not everyone is going to be satisfied, but trying to make qualities of life for the majority of players would be the wiser route.

[ssunny2008]

People want to enjoy their game first and foremost. Not everyone is going to be satisfied, but trying to make qualities of life for the majority of players would be the wiser route.

Yes enjoyment is the most important thing. But how many ppl do really enjoy the given content? Speedrunning several content or doing unsynched runs says enough i guess. What keeps players repeating such stuff is more the greed for that one mount and not really the fun to play, isn´t it? Atleast i don´t meet many ppl who´re like "wow amazing stuff".

There should be a balance between rewards, challenge and QoL. But it´s not really a thing.

[Absurdity]

OP, what are some fights/mechanics you recall fondly from earlier iterations of the game that you would consider challenging in a meaningful way?
And I know it isn't your job to design the game, but I'm wondering:

Not the OP but I'd say most of the fights in Alexander/Alexander Savage. Now we can argue about some of those fights being an absolute pain, hello Living Liquid, due to encounter tuning issues but in general Alexander was the time of experimentation.

It has so many unique fight mechanics that we haven't really seen again since then while also being the introduction of some staple mechanics that nowadays get copy+pasted all the time, Protean Waves, Magnets, Numbers from A11s, Gravitational Anomaly, the door boss etc.

You also had significantly more varied fights that weren't just a boss in a circular room. You had a gauntlet of mini bosses, a fight with vehicles and nothing but add waves, a fight where you constantly needed to be aware of a secondary target and reposition, fights with environmental hazards, fights where both healer and dps needed to manage adds as well.

And it's not just the fights but the entire raid design including the boss arenas was just more interesting.

It felt overall just more creative, like SE was just trying things out that sounded cool.

After the damaging reputation Gordias (Savage) has made for high-end raiding, the devs aren't gonna change their raiding fights much for Extreme and Savage levels. People want to enjoy their game first and foremost. Not everyone is going to be satisfied, but trying to make qualities of life for the majority of players would be the wiser route.

Which is a shame honestly. I don't actually think A3s is an atrociously bad fight, it was just a combination of the fight being too overtuned in terms of dps required and the player mindset being a very different one. Nowadays healers and tanks are expected to push as much dps as they can in savage but back then players only had Coils of Bahamut as a comparison and went into Alexander with the expectation that it would be exactly the same.

[Deliciou5]

I would agree that dungeons are too straightforward having alternative pathways for dungeons with several boss fights before going back to the same final boss to complete the dungeon normally would be cool

The original ARR dungeons weren't designed originally to be that "Replayable" ...meaning side areas have almost zero effort put into them.

If they added challenge pathways with new bosses with unique mounts/drops to them i think players would be elated to do older dungeons content more as well as new ones.

[Bodhicitta]

Imagine ppl would actually concentrate on the topic instead of "playing psychotherapist" or just hunting for some thumbsups.

They're playing psycho-therapist because you're exhibiting abnormal psychological behavior. Are you in the autism spectrum?

When you demonstrate mental instability, there is nothing you can do to get people back "on topic" because mental health is more important than videogames. If you actually have a genetic issue (e.g. autism), then at least that would explain the behavior. If you don't have a condition, you should probably talk to an actual therapist.

[Jirah]

Newsflash, 95-99% of this game is for "casuals". only the top 5% do the "hard" stuff (i.e. savage/ultimates).

Id say its less than that, casual asside its getting to the point where they can start getting children to play, this is not a excuse it still needs to be fun

[DBriggs304]

As i´ve already said, of course noone takes care about optional pathes when it´s poorly done, you don´t get some rewards for challenges, whatever. But to say "ppl don´t want it", when it´s rewarding, challenging or even give options to assist your team for the rest of the dungeon, maybe rare materials, why wouldn´t ppl want to repeat it?

And well, having strong end content which might need a nerf is in all cases better than walking simulations or raids which are getting cleared within the first day by elite-groups.

Not to say that ppl, who actually enjoyed one or another mechanic, probably never show up like "oh cool, please more of this", meanwhile others came with the "too hard, pls nerf" argument immediately.




It´s no radical change to make more use out of everything gameplay-wise or to give us overall more interesting content than repeating fates / ally raids or whatever dozens of times. It´s just not lazy.

It's not interesting to you. Fair enough. Then find something that is somewhere else but this game doesn't need to be changed in that direction.