Can we finally get real content / gameplay?

[ssunny2008]

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If i would dislike the game that much, i wouldn´t have played it that long. The issue is still about the ongoing road downhill to make the game easier and easier. Especially SHB brought a lot of bad and way to easy content, noob changes and class dumbdowns. With Endwalker the route even seems to move downhill again. Healer homogenization and even more casualized pvp is on the way.

I don´t thinks that fates are pointless as the given content. But it´s pointless that the devs want us to do them in any given way.
It´s nice to have them to level up especially as DPS while waiting for dungeon queues. The chain fates or overall fatebosses with some special loot are fine aswell and they bring a bit life to the overworld. But that they are parts of different questlines or hunts is a no go. They have become like 50% of all content, which is just a lazy and stupid design. They´re not even optional overworld stuff, you´ve to grind 1000s of them to unlock vendors in SHB, to finish a bunch of relic weapons quests and you don´t do anything else in bozja or eureka. Ok, in eureka you´ve the elemental design and bozja ones has some mechanics, but it´s nothing deep or challenging, it´s just fategrind over and over again.
That said, i don´t want them to be removed. The devs just need to stop the permanent re-use and spam of them in form of some quests or releveling in alternative content.

With exploration i don´t mean exploration as "exploring the dungeon to unlock the mapshadows". They should just make more use of different pathes or secret rooms, whatever.
As i´ve said for example:

- Different pathings or player decisions could cause different bosses with different loot.
- Sidequests in dungeons could give extra XP / Gil or even open a path to a harder bonus boss right before the dungeon boss. This boss could drop rare pets, special crafting recipes or maybe 1 / 3 token for a mount. The other 2 can be dropped by other bonus bosses from this tier.
- Crafter could be used to open abbrevations, to bring an droid or turret back to life which is following you. Gatherer on the other side might be able to collect raremats here and there.

Overall dungeons should get harder. The challenge is not existend. My latest example would be mentorroulette where i´ve killed 50% of the endboss in amaurot solo as tank. Like wtf?! The current learning curve is not really existent as much as the loot is completely irrelevant. In other MMO´s dungeons made you stronger, you did them for fun on one hand and for the better gear pieces on the other. In FF you run level 60 dungeons with level 50 gear and you get 1 item from the boss for sure. The chests are not really needed and dps / heal a joke. Just pull less adds, bosses are no fear. You won´t even have any issue, you just need more time.
This is a serious issue in their core design. Players don´t grow, don´t get stronger. You´re just getting carried by experienced players with downgraded high-end gear. And good players don´t want to run them again since it´s overall pointless. You´ll get your raidgear via duty finder marks instead of challenging content which prepares yourself in form of difficulty and loot for incoming raid tiers.
It´s ok if normal dungeons aren´t that big of a deal, but they should bring hardcore dungeons with the named difficulty increasing and better loot aswell.

Just take the coinfinder or chimera for example. Both came up pretty new with a text message or just a short castbar. Coinfinder got hard "nerfed" again cause ppl had troubles?! I don´t get it. That´s the point where SE fails completely and forgets that this is a MMORPG. It´s a teamgame, players should help each other and find out new mechanics and how to play around them. But no, they nerf everything into nowhere.
The endboss of Totorak is a good example too or even the overall dungeon. Imagine the endboss and the plants dot would hit harder, so Esuna or kite management is highly needed. Even the addspawns and the idea with the sting are great, but it´s still not a fear since the players are way too strong even with trashgear. Oh and Soft-enrages would be fine too if you can´t manage e.g. to destroy the sting within 20s?!
Other stuff are debuffs or interrupts via silence and cc, ressourcemanagement aswell. While the first stuff is rarely a thing and mostly not even usable on big adds or bosses, the ressoucemanagement is gone completely. It makes the overall class gameplay less challenging and dungeons / raids even worse.

Another example in kind of raiding could be the good old ramuh. Players had to work together and everyone had to had a look at the orbs, debuffs etc. The fight don´t have much mechanics, but a lot of randomness so everyone had to take care. Stuff like alexander with DPS checks on adds, the heal / tank / DPS cages are a good thing too.
We need way more content which forces the player and classes on theirself and not just stack spread aoes. Even playing as OT is more like "please invul this tankbuster" and not to be a tank. We need more double / triple bosses. Adds like Zurvan which needs to be focused down BUT with the boss on the map and not as an extra. Random aggro loss where the boss needs to be taunt back, so the next cast goes onto the tank and not into the group. Kiting mechanics even as DPS or heal. And and and...
What we´ve now are fights, which are perfect matched on class cooldowns who just spam aoes or knockbacks mostly. Even the current E12s with the debuffs is not challenging, just a pain for unlucky melee dps. And on top of that, if 1 guy fails, it´s mostly a wipe.

Sad to say, with all the class dumb downs, we´ve even lost a lot of possibilities in the making of good content. Tanks can´t really protect the group, but are undying by themself. DPS can´t protect themself and even the health / MR / PR balance design is a joke. It´s all about healers in any content. In kind of dungeons, you can solo pretty much everything as tank atleast.
So as i´ve said, while Esuna, silence and cc are still a thing, it´s not even used properly by the devs. Not to say that the most players don´t even know about esuna or silence skills. Why don´t have a boss who wipes the group with debuffs or if it´s not getting silenced? Just for the fact to LEARN something?

Imagine, any new dungeons are like "go in, do big pulls, kill the boss". I personally don´t care for anything there, because it´s wall to wall anyway. Wasted efford in class, content and art design. Meanwhile raids are made of an aoe every 60s together with stack spread / tb between them. Such design like the weapons where you´ve to move onto some obstacles or to avoid splash aoes isn´t that big deal too. It´s all standard and low budget design. It´s stuff you normally learn in the first 2h in any MMORPG.

Overall the classdesign would be an endless discussion too.


Sad to see SE´s route with the game. "Casualisation" isn´t even the correct word, it´s more like "Noobisation". Any casual can run and finish the current content, just the last fights of savage (E12s / E8s / etc.) might be hard without Relic and transendence DPS buffs. But mechanical - wise it´s definately not and reached with SHB the worst state of the gameplay ever.
It just needs to stop. I don´t know how poeple have fun while running braindead content. It´s just a timesink isn´t it? Wouldn´t you have more fun to beat a challenge together with friends?

I really don´t ask for serious elitism content as other games have nightmare options in their raids. I ask for content which is more than just a beautiful environment or a circle arena. Content with variation, which make use of the utility we have on our classes and which still forces us to grow or to find new and different strategies. Content with better and even rare loot instead of some tombstones from a level 15 dungeon. Or even content we can prepare ourself better with a little skilltree like "better shields, dots tick longer, lower gapcloser cooldowns, whatever".

Wall to wall, 123 combos, move to your marker, stack / spread, invul... this shouldn´t be the answer for everything.

Good luck getting an answer from them going by the absurd levels of reductionism and vagueness displayed here.

Imagine ppl would actually concentrate on the topic instead of "playing psychotherapist" or just hunting for some thumbsups.

[dreamfisher]

If i would dislike the game that much ...

Thanks for the clarification!
When it comes to combat, I consider myself a pretty casual player. Yet, I strongly agree with you on all points, here.

Interesting dungeon ideas. Remind me of a few things:
- Alternate routes for treasure: Brayflox's Longstop
- Optional side bosses: Halitali (kind of)
- Crafter/Gatherer thing is unprecedented, but that's something I've always wanted.
There are so many unique elements in ARR. I even remember having to spam Haukke Manor and take side routes to get varnish for the instrument furniture, and how much fun large pulls were in Brayflox HM.

Though now I've thought of something cursed: A jump/platforming puzzle inside a dungeon.

With regard to FATEs, I kind of liked when they were a part of the ARR relic, but even back then, I disliked their inclusion in the Crystal Tower questline. It was a bit more novel, at least, at the time.
And while I'll refrain from commenting on the raid stuff, I liked the example of Ramuh. It was the example that came to my mind, too!

From what I've seen, the consensus is that the class homogenisation/simplification/etc is actually a problem. I don't expect them to reverse their direction with job design, but I'm still hoping for it. I guess we'll know soon enough!

The other thing that ties all of this together, though, seems to be a lack of experimentation. We've listed so many mechanics that were sort of just... Tried in ARR and then nothing like them was revisited in later iterations of the game.
I would absolutely love to see them try thinking outside the box, even if it means it's not well-received.
This applies to the overworld, too. It feels like they took two of the systems in ARR (FATEs and hunts) and decided those were just enough to carry every other expansion.

In short, I think so many complaints would be addressed with some experimentation, as long as that experimentation didn't detract from the core experience of the game— an issue with certain innovations seen in other games.
I'd love to be proven wrong, but I do kind of worry that 6.X will just be more of the same.

All that said, I do still think there's a ton to love in the game. It's at least a very polished sort of repetition, and I still personally enjoy it — except healing. I don't currently enjoy healing.

[RokkuEkkusu]

So what exactly are you trying to get out of this game? It's obvious that the FFXIV devs aren't going to change much in a very small amount of time after the FFXIV 1.0 disaster.

I really like this game, it has a lot stuff in its world, great graphics and a good storyline. But gameplay and content - wise it´s getting worse and worse. It feels like the devs just want to give us fast content over quality ones.

The world

While the world in ARR is well thought and more filled with life, it´s going downhill with the expansions. We´ve 6 big terrains to explore, but there isn´t much to explore.
All we do is a questline and running from one wind-ether to another. Yes some maps still look beautiful, but that´s it. They´re pretty empty and loveless designed. We just move through them and might come back for tons of stupid FATE-grind or Hunts.


Dungeons

The probably biggest thing i´m dissapointed about are dungeons. While even here the early ARR dungeons still has multiple pathes, some little ideas or secret rooms, all of them are "no efford - content".
You just pull your 2 packs of adds 2 times, then you beat a boss and repeat this 2 times. The only way to wipe is with a newcomer heal who don´t know what his buttons do.

Shadowbringers at this time put a nail on them for me once again. All the Loot has become totally worthless unless you want to farm that specific BIS gear for ultimates. But it´s no fun or challenging.
Bosses has become even more simplified and thanks to a bunch of reworks (especially tanks) you can run them down halfblind lefthanded.

Dungeons are a core-aspect of any MMORPG, but i can´t see any enjoyment here. The quality in their design doesn´t exist and some hardcore endgame dungeons to get our gear for the first raids aren´t a thing.

Other games do it a way better. There are some normal dungeons with better gear than your current level is. They´ve hardcore dungeons with pets or mounts for those who beat the challenge. Even random chests are still useful.
I do even know some where crafter jobs can open secret pathes or activate NPC´s who help you. Or you´ve a sidequests in the dungeon with a bonusboss in the end, maybe even different bosses per run, based on the players decisions.
Such stuff brings way more enjoyment than the named "pull as much adds as you can, beat the boss, repeat" - cycle.


Raids

Raids should be a challenge, but they´re no challenge anymore. It´s all about stack/spread mechanics or to avoid an aoe. CC and silence, which are sadly the last existend tools, have become super rare.

The only real challenge we´ve is, that ALL of the 8 players have to play mechanics clear or it´s a wipe. It isn´t a great design when 7 players always rely on that 8. player to move to a marker or something.
Yes we´re a group, but the game should challenge the players in a good way to find solutions or strategies against all the issues the current party has. But this is not really possible when the whole challenge is to remind where you´ve to move at mechanic X. As we all know it goes even so far, that Raidbots are well presented in FF14 especially in ultimate.

The game could need a better design here and more possibilities on all the classes. Give us something to do, bosses we can grow at. 2 or even more bosses at once, tanks / dps who need to kite and no instawipe because someone failed when the rest of the party is able to handle it with timed cooldowns or smart decisions.

Let's remember that quite a bit of players do not care for going for side/optional paths back in ARR dungeons. Sastasha and Toto-Rak being the biggest examples here. That is why the devs and some players are content with the straight-path dungeon design for most of Heavensward and on.

I am pretty sure you raid Coils, Savages, and/or Ultimates. If you remember turn 7 (Melusine), people tend to use BRD/SMN for kiting the Cyclops mobs. While people enjoyed turn 7 pre-nerf, the following link shows that the devs thought a few aspects of it is something that they probably will not do in the future:

https://gamerescape.com/2016/12/29/f...panel-summary/

As a result, most fights end up being focusing on DPS rotations and resolving mechanics as usual in various ways in high-end content, especially after Gordias (Savage) happened.

Judging by the typical development schedule, FFXIV devs believe in the saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" most of the time. [points to various criticisms against Final Fantasy XIII Trilogy, Final Fantasy XIV 1.0, and arguably Final Fantasy XV].

[ssunny2008]

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As i´ve already said, of course noone takes care about optional pathes when it´s poorly done, you don´t get some rewards for challenges, whatever. But to say "ppl don´t want it", when it´s rewarding, challenging or even give options to assist your team for the rest of the dungeon, maybe rare materials, why wouldn´t ppl want to repeat it?

And well, having strong end content which might need a nerf is in all cases better than walking simulations or raids which are getting cleared within the first day by elite-groups.

Not to say that ppl, who actually enjoyed one or another mechanic, probably never show up like "oh cool, please more of this", meanwhile others came with the "too hard, pls nerf" argument immediately.

The game doesn't need a radical change. There are plenty of other options elsewhere for other types of gameplay. Play those.

It´s no radical change to make more use out of everything gameplay-wise or to give us overall more interesting content than repeating fates / ally raids or whatever dozens of times. It´s just not lazy.

[RokkuEkkusu]

As i´ve already said, of course noone takes care about optional pathes when it´s poorly done, you don´t get some rewards for challenges, whatever. But to say "ppl don´t want it", when it´s rewarding, challenging or even give options to assist your team for the rest of the dungeon, maybe rare materials, why wouldn´t ppl want to repeat it?

And well, having strong end content which might need a nerf is in all cases better than walking simulations or raids which are getting cleared within the first day by elite-groups.

Not to say that ppl, who actually enjoyed one or another mechanic, probably never show up like "oh cool, please more of this", meanwhile others came with the "too hard, pls nerf" argument immediately.




It´s no radical change to make more use out of everything gameplay-wise or to give us overall more interesting content than repeating fates / ally raids or whatever dozens of times. It´s just not lazy.

Let's see the typical reward structure: gil, gear, tomes, minions, and mounts. If people want to make use of their rewards, great. If people take their rewards for granted and/or not seize opportunities for rewards, that is their problem. Even if the devs were to put these rewards in the side paths, most wouldn't even care for them because they just wanna clear the content first and foremost.

After the damaging reputation Gordias (Savage) has made for high-end raiding, the devs aren't gonna change their raiding fights much for Extreme and Savage levels. People want to enjoy their game first and foremost. Not everyone is going to be satisfied, but trying to make qualities of life for the majority of players would be the wiser route.

[ssunny2008]

People want to enjoy their game first and foremost. Not everyone is going to be satisfied, but trying to make qualities of life for the majority of players would be the wiser route.

Yes enjoyment is the most important thing. But how many ppl do really enjoy the given content? Speedrunning several content or doing unsynched runs says enough i guess. What keeps players repeating such stuff is more the greed for that one mount and not really the fun to play, isn´t it? Atleast i don´t meet many ppl who´re like "wow amazing stuff".

There should be a balance between rewards, challenge and QoL. But it´s not really a thing.

[Bodhicitta]

Imagine ppl would actually concentrate on the topic instead of "playing psychotherapist" or just hunting for some thumbsups.

They're playing psycho-therapist because you're exhibiting abnormal psychological behavior. Are you in the autism spectrum?

When you demonstrate mental instability, there is nothing you can do to get people back "on topic" because mental health is more important than videogames. If you actually have a genetic issue (e.g. autism), then at least that would explain the behavior. If you don't have a condition, you should probably talk to an actual therapist.