Controversioal Changes to Monk

[dezzmont]

Imagine coming to the official forums to suggest changes to monk when you don’t understand the class at all… and I thought monk had the lobotomy

Remember that every job needs to work not just for the people who already like it, but people who want to get into it, either just because they like the thematics, or think it is interesting at low levels. Often times the criticism made by people who are 'bouncing off' the job misses the point, but its important to keep in mind those people still have correctly noticed an issue with the job and any fix not only has to make the job engaging and fun for its current users, but ALSO make the job exciting for people who like the look of it and be fun to learn.

SAM, for example, is the gold standard of this, with I would say BLM a bit behind. Meanwhile MNK and especially SMN are REALLY bad at the 'fantasy' aspect of the job.

The fact that one of the job's most important dps buttons is BOOTSHINE really speaks to how little the devs have actually cared about Monk going into and throughout Shadowbringers.

It is truly wild to me that the auto-crit bootshine and the correctly applied tornado kick don't get alternate flashy animations when you are using them to A: make it more clear that you probably went through rotation effectively, and B: makes perfect balance bootshine spam actually fun, akin to getting TO GO HAM WITH FELLCEAVE.

If Crit Bootshine had a cool mechanic I am sure that 'Monk is bootshine the job' would be far less of a common complaint, because it would more resemble a traditional burst window in terms of gamefeel where you suddenly get to spam your coolest attacks really really fast.

Of course flashy animations aren't a panacea, especially if over-applied and not related to any sort of 'reward' mechanic, as MCH shows us quite clearly.

[ssunny2008]

Remember that every job needs to work not just for the people who already like it, but people who want to get into it, either just because they like the thematics, or think it is interesting at low levels.

That´s nonsense. We all started once, have tried different classes etc. Not every class should be for everyone and will definately never match everyones taste. That´s why different classes or skilltrees exist in any games. Do you like bananas? Not my fav, but if the would´ve the taste of raspberries...
Themes or aesthetics doesn´t represent a class too. They are there to be there. What if MNK animations change? Do such ppl drop the class then, even if the gameplay is made for them?

but its important to keep in mind those people still have correctly noticed an issue with the job and any fix not only has to make the job engaging and fun for its current users, but ALSO make the job exciting for people who like the look of it and be fun to learn.

Self-made issues are no gameplay-issues. Positionals have ever been the core aspect of MNK. It´s would be like playing a SAM without a katana, a NIN without mudra or even a healer without healing abilities.
If you don´t like a concept of a class, why should it change? There are more than enough OLD AND NEW players who like it. It´s not like 99,9% of all players agree on this like we call "anatman is useless".

If someone really likes a class for whatever reason, then just go and learn it? I did it, friends did it, thousands of other players did it...
It´s just nonsense.

SAM, for example, is the gold standard of this, with I would say BLM a bit behind. Meanwhile MNK and especially SMN are REALLY bad at the 'fantasy' aspect of the job.

SAM is no gold standard as much as BLM isn´t. SAM is just easy to play and together with his tons of damage, you don´t even need to master the class to compete in the endgame. That´s the real reason why it´s so popular especially in the endgame.
BLM on the other hand isn´t even a favorite job. It´s the least played job next to MNK. I for myself would like to be a badass caster, but guess what? I don´t like being a static turret with tons of casting times. Maybe they should get ride of them and give me positionals instead?

And just as overall reference... away from eureka / bozja where the most run RDM for an obvious reason, the most played classes are definately SAM, SMN and DNC. SAM for the reason i called, SMN obviously because a lot of girls out there like to play a pet class as starter. DNC is a free kill class too. It´s the easiest in FF14 when we talk about DPS and you let others work (carry) for you.

PS: It´s not even hard to get used to any class in FF14. The most ppl are just lazy, don´t read skills, don´t use their brain or are not able to google any guide. Then they come in here to complain. (And i´m not even talking about "mastering a class".)

[dezzmont]

A job needs to not just satisfy those who already play it, but have broad appeal. A job that makes 12 players over the moon happy, but most players who try it with a desire to enjoy it but don't, is a failure. It doesn't need to make EVERYONE who 'wants to be a monk/blackbelt' happy, but it needs to make most people happy that this is the game's representation of that trope.

...Themes or aesthetics doesn´t represent a class too. They are there to be there.

This is out of line with how most people engage with MMOs. Thematic identity is a HUGE selling point of games which offer it in general and why class/faction systems exist that merge mechanical and thematic identity in the first place. Abstract games exist, but MMOs are about as poorly suited to being an abstract game as you can get because the entire point is that it is an attempt to create an immersive experience where you inhabit a fantasy idealized identity. Saying that the thematics are 'just there to be there' counters basically everything we know about Ludology. If this didn't matter, people wouldn't be buying job crystals or commissioning art of their character doing job stuff, or making memes about jobs or gushing over DRK's story.

SAM is no gold standard as much as BLM isn´t.

Job satisfaction polls for SAM and BLM are both extremely high, and the devs themselves have said they think Black Mage is pretty much 'perfect.'

There is a reason everyone loves BLM memes, but Monk memes don't exist. Memes might not be the first thing you think of when you think of a success metric for a job design, but it means people CARE about and LIKE Black Mage's identity even if they AREN'T playing it. This is going to be the primary success metric of a class in most games.

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You seem to be imagining I am saying 'Dumb Monk Down.' But I am not. I am saying Monk lacks any broad appeal (or, lets face it, much niche appeal).

So, to bring it back to the context of "Jobs need to be appealing even to people not yet playing them": You don't need to understand Monk to understand it is has very serious problems and is a failed job design, because jobs aren't just for the people playing them, they are (expensive) advertisements for the game getting people excited to live out a fantasy of some sort, and usually if a lot of people go 'eww stinky' to a job it means there is a real issue: Outsiders are bad at pointing to solutions problems (ex: Positionals on monks, Egi's preformance on SMN) but they are really good at noticing the problems (Monk feels empty and actively player hostile, Summoners don't feel like Final Fantasy summoners). Getting upset that an outsider explains why the job feels wrong to them is actively self destructive and petty.

You saw what they did to Machinist. Being in denial about the importance of mass appeal and community perception of a job won't change the reality of the job as it stands. They will absolutely nuke Monk as a job entirely if people broadly think it is trash and complain about it because the mass perception of the job is more important than how a very tiny group of players (who clearly don't like the job as is anyway!) feel about it.

[VentVanitas]

Sure, you don't need to fully understand MNK to know it's poorly designed, but people (and by extension SE) not specifically knowing why the job is bad is what pretty much led us to this point. You only need to look at the first two pages of this thread to see this.

[ssunny2008]

snip

FF14 has a bunch of classes to get used too. Having some niche classes isn´t a bad thing. That there are actually niche classes at all IS because we´ve a wide selection even with the homogenization of subclasses. The "perfect" BLM is a niche class too, so how if it´s so perfect designed?!


First of all, ppl who don´t even play a class properly shouldn´t come up like "pls change". The experience is not existend. It´s not like positionals are part of the game since its beginning and nothing SE experiments with since yesterday. MNK in its design isn´t that poor, it´s just not completely standard as SAM is for example. The loss of GL just made this job an off gcd button smasher.

And while we´re at this point:

SAM - It´s a standard melee class. Long buff durations, 123 combo and a burst skill. The only thing which makes it even feeling like playing a SAM is Midare. The rest is just "pew pew" and could be any class with a sword, spear, whatever. Midare at this point might be even the biggest reason why it´s a popular class. The damage output is top tier and the feedback is real. But does SAM has a real soul or unique class aspect? It doesn´t in my eyes.

BLM - Still niche but "perfect"? It doesn´t fit, does it? Why shouldn´t BLM be changed, when it´s the least played class next to MNK? What´s the point?
Away from the fact, that BLM is probably the only class with different spells / rotations each expansion. It just fits the vision of a badass caster. SMN on the other hand shouldn´t even be called a mage and RDM, hmm... don´t know what it is?

Just because ppl see a design issue by themself, doesn´t mean that there is an issue. A lot of class changes, GL, Tanks, MCH, AST or whatever have been made to simplify the game, not because everything was a real issue. It´s just how ppl got used to it, got bored, were too lazy to learn a class completely or had content given troubles like the good old "range advantage" or "losing GL in a dumb cutszene we´ve to watch over and over again". And there we even see the biggest advantage of a BLM. It can be played in any content properly. It´s not always 123 with off gcd´s and you´re getting highly rewarded for playing well. This difference got pretty much eliminated on a lot of classes. MNK is the only melee left where positionals make up more than some little percentages.

And again, we all have different tastes and there is no reason to "kill" classes with that amount of selection. At any time were ppl who liked class X like it was at patch X while others disliked it for some reason.


About the themes / aesthetics...

The game should´ve a theme yeah and it has one. Classes on the other hand should be unique, different from each other and fun to play. Just have a look at DRG. Is there anybody who don´t likes to be that badass dragonrider out there? I guess not. But is the gameplay real fun? It´s imo the most boring combo class and the jumps cause more issues than anything else in different boss fights. Pressing a button to get animation stucked or to die isn´t a great design and it doesn´t even represent it well to be like Estinien or whoever.

Another thing is when you start the game. You choose a class you don´t know really much about, not the themes, not the aesthetics, nothing. Until level X there is like a 1-3 button gameplay. It´s far away from being fun or engaging and hold a lot of players away from this game too.
Man we could talk all day long about all the flaws in the gameplay design.


It just doesn´t make sense to change classes to cater 3 more players who won´t main the job anyway or who just run aoe spamming dungeons. Especially OP doesn´t know anything real about MNK based on his claims / questions in other threads. I for myself could even go into any other thread about RDM, SMN, BRD or whatever and write down the same.
And given to the standard examples we could even argue like "Why is MNK not like SAM?", "Why is SMN not a BLM?" etc... Why do even classes exist, which are a totally mess in their core? Because there are still 3% of all gamers who enjoy it as it is and this is surely a number we can agree on any class with. Everything above probably change classes based on the meta or mind anyway.

(Classes are no mess just because the same 100 ppl claim it day per day, when the game has millions of players.)

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Just have a look at DRG. Is there anybody who don´t likes to be that badass dragonrider out there?

Me, right here. >->/ *raises hand* I very much and much serious hate the FFXIV "Dragoon".
It does not even deserve to be referred to as Dragoon, and is just a mere Dragon Lancer... The game-play of Dragon Lancer is fine enough, the Subclass could be a lot worse in design, but the moment I realized that the Subclass is Dragon Lancer, and not Dragoon, I never played it again and I will never play it again; as I felt and still feel much disappointment and hate towards the subclass's aesthetic being Dragon Lancer, instead of Dragoon.

I never complain about it in the forums, though.
A real Dragoon in FFXIV would be absolute not possible, to my disappointment, so there is naught to say about the matter...

That aside, I agree with Dezzmont. And, I both think and feel.. that the aesthetic and identity of a Subclass is just as important, if not more important, than the game-play of the Subclass... The identity and aesthetic should come first, and then the game-play design needs to fit and match the aesthetic
and the identity.

Monk... I feel has a identity crisis, similar to several other Subclasses. Its game-play does not match its identity, is the first and main issue, while the second issue, to me.. seems to be that different people have a different opinion on what the aesthetic is, and how that ties into the identity, while the game-play itself is also a mess and does not fit well...

[IruruCece]

That aside, I agree with Dezzmont. And, I both think and feel.. that the aesthetic and identity of a Subclass is just as important, if not more important, than the game-play of the Subclass...

Hard disagree. Aesthetics mean next to nothing in a videogame if it is not engaging, and gameplay is what makes the vast majority of vidoegames engaging. We're not playing a walking sim here, we're playing an MMORPG.

Monk is literally the perfect example of why "Aesthetics over Gameplay" is a flawed argument. At best, an "aesthetic" should set the tone for the kit, but if the kit doesn't compel players to engage with that "aesthetic", it doesn't matter.

For years, Monk has been built around being the "speedy, combo-heavy job." Positionals emphasize that speed and mobility, demanding players stay in motion next to a single target in order to maximize their output. Greased Lightning was both the core mechanic of the job AND the reward for the player who stayed aggressive and maintained their combos. There was clearly an intended ebb and flow to the gameplay, a "build up" to maximum speed and strength.

But because players could "fail" to maintain GL, in many instances due to circumstances completely outside of their control, SE ultimately ended up cutting it, failing to actually address that singular issue which has been present since 2.0.

The thing is, the outward "aesthetic" of Monk is still present. It is still fast (permanently), it is still combo-driven (123, 456, 123, 123, 456, 123, 123...), it still has positionals (only one of which truly matters due to an outsized emphasis on our LEVEL 1 DPS BUTTON), we still throw chi around, we still have chakra generation (that is still RNG in nature on top having very unsatisfying things to spend it on), and our animations involve us punching and kicking things like monks in other fictional settings. None of that matters though, because fewer people are taking Monks into endgame content than almost every other DPS in the game.

[Mikey_R]

Monk is literally the perfect example of why "Aesthetics over Gameplay" is a flawed argument.

This so much. I love the aesthetic of Monk, punching and kicking things to death has always appealed to me, however, the gameplay I feel has gone downhill since Stormblood and it was at this point I started forming a love/hate relationship with the job. Love the aesthetics, gameplay....not so much. That is mainly because it just was not evolving through the expansions like other jobs and it has just been stuck in the past.

In contrast, Dragoon gameplay has just evolved over the expansions, building on what what it already had. It never felt stuck in the past, even it's GCD rotation got changed up through the expansions. Similar things have happened to Samurai and Ninja, but again, Monk was left behind.

If Monk doesn't get back the same feeling as HW or even ARR, then this might be the first time I don't make it one of my priority jobs to level in EW as 3 expansions of mediocrity is just too much.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Hard disagree. Aesthetics mean next to nothing in a videogame if it is not engaging, and gameplay is what makes the vast majority of vidoegames engaging. We're not playing a walking sim here, we're playing an MMORPG.

Monk is literally the perfect example of why "Aesthetics over Gameplay" is a flawed argument. At best, an "aesthetic" should set the tone for the kit, but if the kit doesn't compel players to engage with that "aesthetic", it doesn't matter.

Straight after when I did type "the aesthetic and identity of a Subclass is just as important, if not more important, than the game-play of the Subclass..."
I also did type: "The identity and aesthetic should come first, and then the game-play design needs to fit and match the aesthetic and the identity."

I may have chosen my words wrong, my apologies.
My English is not exact to Merican English, and I mess up with my attempts to express what I mean, at times...

I meant to make the implication: "both or bust". Just one or the other is not quite good enough, and both need to be prevalent, and function well enough...
I did not mean, or intend to type, that one or the other should or does have priority over the other.

Game-play with no proper expression of Aesthetic and identity is low-quality and a failure. Aesthetic and identity with lousy game-play is low-quality and a failure. Both need to be good enough, and function well together... where FFXIV.. for the most part, lacks that. most of the Subclasses have one or the other side good enough, with the other side being a low-quality failure.

That said, I feel like some people would claim that they think or feel that some of the Subclasses lack in both a Aesthetic and Identity, and in game-play.

[nalgene]

(only one of which truly matters due to an outsized emphasis on our LEVEL 1 DPS BUTTON)

This is obvious when you point it out but it never occurred to me how the most powerful regular button literally is the level 1 skill lol. Kind of unsatisfying.

Reminds me of another point someone on the forum made about how Monk often feels weak because a lot of the more powerful looking animations just get cut off early.