My changes for tanks. suggestions

[Sedalia]

I'm just going to quote this as the vast majority of what you say boils down to this and that is , bad plays are bad, we need to dumb the jobs down so that they don't mess up.

No.

The bad players need to improve. Yes, you might see more deaths in dungeons than in raids, but that is because the people in raids know how to play the job and get the most out of it, whilst also doing mechanics. Also, I have no idea who you run dungeons with, but I have done them as tanks, healers and DPS and I very rarely see a death at all.

The problem with trying to cater to the lowest denominator is that you make the gameplay boring for people that do want to improve and get better. Your whole idea is to remove mitigation buttons and bake them into the basic combo so that you don't need to think about them. This is not an improvement. However, even if you do that, I guarantee there will still be someone who will screw it up, what do you do then? Dumb it down even more? I can say with some confidence that even if you reduced all jobs to 3 buttons, tere will still be someone who messes up. Even if you make the next skill glow like a christmas tree, someone will mess it up. So the question is, where do you draw this line? Most people will say, where the line is now is a good spot in regards to the mitigation kit and the damaging kit.

you also say you want to reduce pulls to single packs to accomodate your changes but again, you are just taking away the fun from the tanks that know what they are doing. I said you need to critisice your ideas to make you think, how will this affect low level play, mid level play and high level play. However, you have not done this, you have just focused on how to make it easier for the low level players.

Also, I play exclusively on controller, Paladin has the most actions to put on the crossbars with 33 in total. Shield Bash is essentially useless when Low Blow is more than enough, so you can reduce it down to 32, which is exactly enough to fit on 2 crossbars. I also play quite a wide variety of jobs and never have issues with space, so that argument is just not valid.

No thats not what am saying not saying make paladin so stupid even the worst of the worst can play them what I am trying to say is squire-enix shouldn't encourage this behaviour. but every expansion they do so. by overloading tanks with even more dumb buttons pretty much functions same way as the old ones do. or have loads of buttons that pretty much same thing but copy/pasted for more buttons means more fun pc community. even if those buttons are just copies of the olds one you been using for whole expansion. I want creativity I want to feel like a tank i want class fantasy most importantly I dont want to be a flipping dps job.

are saying pressing a single button press takes more skill more brain-power (watch mind 80% of tanking community lacks right now) then keeping rotation perfect up 100% of the time. cause if you done you lose your defensives cooldowns most likely die my suggestion isn't making it easy. its unforgiving as hell. you mess up once. you press wrong button, you fuck up on 123 combo. your dead tank no healer is gonna be able to save you. my suggestion requires you have skill at your job. your punished hard really hard if you mess up something so simple

[RinaB]

I feel like the issue with tanks in 14 is more so with how classed are designed in general. Healers and tanks in this game have no real value as they're pretty simple to play and maintaining threat is just not even something to worry about. I would like to see tanks have to gain enmity again and make healers harder to heal with and that way only the people dedicated to the roles will play them. Everyone and their dog is running around with a gunblade on their back and as nice as it is there are tons of tanks, you end up with a lot of garbage. Same goes for healers, my most frequent issues is healers who just flat out refuse to heal and I think its because they play the role for fast queue times and their heals are so powerful they can risk you dropping to 5%. More often then not I end up dying on trash and its become a big problem. Wow healers are really hard because their heals don't heal for that much so it keeps you on your toes and puts a heavy reliance on the group to play properly. Tanking in that game is the same way, it relies heavily in your group not being stupid. In 14, it's mindless tab targeting and glare spam because who cares and this promotes bad gameplay and creates a plethora of garbage tanks and healers who are actually making the content worse for everyone.

[Sedalia]

I feel like the issue with tanks in 14 is more so with how classed are designed in general. Healers and tanks in this game have no real value as they're pretty simple to play and maintaining threat is just not even something to worry about. I would like to see tanks have to gain enmity again and make healers harder to heal with and that way only the people dedicated to the roles will play them. Everyone and their dog is running around with a gunblade on their back and as nice as it is there are tons of tanks, you end up with a lot of garbage. Same goes for healers, my most frequent issues is healers who just flat out refuse to heal and I think its because they play the role for fast queue times and their heals are so powerful they can risk you dropping to 5%. More often then not I end up dying on trash and its become a big problem. Wow healers are really hard because their heals don't heal for that much so it keeps you on your toes and puts a heavy reliance on the group to play properly. Tanking in that game is the same way, it relies heavily in your group not being stupid. In 14, it's mindless tab targeting and glare spam because who cares and this promotes bad gameplay and creates a plethora of garbage tanks and healers who are actually making the content worse for everyone.

thank you some help me explain it better. and thing is community doesn't or tank devs only make it worse. anytime someone dares says something the question about that players skill is brought up not the fact that we have alot hot garbage in are kit. have much of players that defend it. simply cause they dont want to lose buttons or like playing "Dps" no i mean "tank" simply get good isn't the awnser anymore when it drags other people through the dirt for them to get good.

everyone tank right so overjoyed that got this new dps skill. but then we have more plethora of hot garbage ruining the game for other people cause people want play something else other then tank when job says tank. who suffers most the minor majority of players who actually do decent doing what they do. think is tanks and healers lost there way. we don't have buffs as healers its either healing or dps nothing between. tanks pretty much button spamming dps skills get 100% enmity showing no skill none this is from same company that thinks titan egi is majestic piece of art modern day masterpiece -> when actually its looks like a floating tard . yet there are people happy they got this floating pile of ****

anytime someone says or even suggests that please make tanks feel like tanks again. there be 3 other people who climaxing on more simpleton dps skills like it requires you any skill to do basic function of damage in this game

[Xtrasweettea]

*terrible assumptions*

Lot's of bad assumptions and conclusions drawn from your journey of you being a DPS in dungeons that you got inconvenienced a few times on.

To us who have been on the forums for years, you're just another person wanting to revamp a piece of a whole system because you got inconvenienced by a tank in a dungeon. It's tiring at this point.

Tanks in FF14, at this time, have already simplified so much already. No more "stance dancing", no more strafing to keep uptime on bosses, no more attribute melds, bosses tend to self-position more than ever, enmity is not longer a party responsibility and only a tank one, removal of TP, etc. We're tired of tanks being stripped down so "everyone can play" and to help "simplify things."

Your idea is not going to fix any problems when it comes to bad tank players. Button reduction and forced passives do not fix bad. Instead, they punish good players.

You have several systems in your toolbox right now that can help with the bad tank situation:
1. Communicate in the party that the tank is doing bad and help them
2. You can vote dismiss the bad tank
3. You can leave the instance and gamble on another tank
4. You can bring your own tank or be one
5. Set up a Party Finder and screen your tanks.
6. At 71, you can start using Trusts

Lots of options that don't require whole system coding changes and counter design revamps from Satasha up to Ultimate.

[Sedalia]

Lot's of bad assumptions and conclusions drawn from your journey of you being a DPS in dungeons that you got inconvenienced a few times on.

To us who have been on the forums for years, you're just another person wanting to revamp a piece of a whole system because you got inconvenienced by a tank in a dungeon. It's tiring at this point.

Tanks in FF14, at this time, have already simplified so much already. No more "stance dancing", no more strafing to keep uptime on bosses, no more attribute melds, bosses tend to self-position more than ever, enmity is not longer a party responsibility and only a tank one, removal of TP, etc. We're tired of tanks being stripped down so "everyone can play" and to help "simplify things."

Your idea is not going to fix any problems when it comes to bad tank players. Button reduction and forced passives do not fix bad. Instead, they punish good players.

You have several systems in your toolbox right now that can help with the bad tank situation:
1. Communicate in the party that the tank is doing bad and help them
2. You can vote dismiss the bad tank
3. You can leave the instance and gamble on another tank
4. You can bring your own tank or be one
5. Set up a Party Finder and screen your tanks.
6. At 71, you can start using Trusts

Lots of options that don't require whole system coding changes and counter design revamps from Satasha up to Ultimate.

now your down talking to me like am some noobie doesn't know what there talkin about and ive been playing this game sense before realm reborn was released. so don't tell me what is what isn't i have seen it all. this is not about "Oh met one bad tank now there all like that" no its not bout that. this is about bad game design. this about being a tank. don't care if my idea is bad. or not sure we already talked about that earlier. and came to understanding it was bad. however. topic changed to: just give you update. state of tanking how it sucks.

this the best can do rather its new damage mitagion abilities or another stupid dps button copy/paste job another button we already have. dont understand how anyone can find fun. this is squire-enix game company making games for longiest time actually has 2 mmos. this is best they can come up with? why isn't anyone expressing there frustration why isn't anyone saying this shit boring. dont care about it being 123 or being 123456 combos as long as that combo isn't just

"potency damage" I mean what the hell? guys seriously still havent gotten it yet i mean come on

[Xtrasweettea]

now your down talking to me like am some noobie doesn't know what there talkin about and ive been playing this game sense before realm reborn was released. so don't tell me what is what isn't i have seen it all. this is not about "Oh met one bad tank now there all like that" no its not bout that. this is about bad game design. this about being a tank. don't care if my idea is bad. or not sure we already talked about that earlier. and came to understanding it was bad. however. topic changed to: just give you update. state of tanking how it sucks.

this the best can do rather its new damage mitagion abilities or another stupid dps button copy/paste job another button we already have. dont understand how anyone can find fun. this is squire-enix game company making games for longiest time actually has 2 mmos. this is best they can come up with? why isn't anyone expressing there frustration why isn't anyone saying this shit boring. dont care about it being 123 or being 123456 combos as long as that combo isn't just

"potency damage" I mean what the hell? guys seriously still havent gotten it yet i mean come on

Your posts prior to this one clearly called out why you want to make these changes before “tanking system is bad.” You encountered bad tanks in dungeons and you were inconvenienced as a DPS. You wanted to make changes to tanks at the dungeon level (lowest common denominator). There is no other way to take your posts. If you feel like I am talking down to you, that is on you.

If you truly were playing from 1.0, then you would know the evolution of tanking over time from 1.0 to today. You should have picked up on all of the context clues that SE is making tanking more welcoming through simplification of kits and encounters.

What is making this whole thing boring is simplification: pure and simple. Pushing that one CD to negate a planned TB is boring in ShB. Tanking giant-mc-wall-boss-can’t-move #6 this expansion is not entertaining. Not being able to pull from Boss 1 to Boss 2, unwalled in Expert dungeons is ho-hum.

That’s SE’s decision to keep streamlining and simplifying roles no wants to play. The downside of that is boredom and people leaving the role who were entertained by it.

By the way, SE has three MMOs: FF11, Dragon Quest 10, and FF14. Tanking in FF14, which is streamlined and quick tanking, is much more preferred over FF11 (I have never played DQ10, so no comments about that).

In FF11, you were tanking ONE mob, even in basic content. Trying to tank anything over one mob in almost all circumstances would result in death and undo hours of progress. You had to have support (RDM, BRD, and Corsair) constantly keep other enemies asleep as to not wipe the party. The outgoing damage from enemies, even at-level enemies, were above and beyond what a single tank can handle.

You know what Paladins did to tank in FF11? Auto-attacks, a few abilities on multi-minute cooldowns to negate some damage, a weaponskill when the gained 100 TP (TP is something you earned in FF11), and spamming spells without trying to have your MP running out (mainly Flashes and Cures). PLDs didn’t have a Tank Stance, so other party members had to control their own actions to make sure they didn’t get hate. FF11’s Provoke, didn’t put the user at the top of the hate list, it added a flat value of hate.

SE went from FF11's tanking to FF14’s tanking. No need to worry about MP management, TP management, securing hate, none of that. Even in ARR, tanking was no where close to a risky as it was in FF11. So yes, this FF14 tanking is the best SE can do with the goals they have in mind.

FF11, never accomplished the population increase that FF14 has. Some of FF14's success in this department is by adding convince to the role (that and not having to spend hours getting back lost EXP from dieing).

[FoxCh40s]

Your posts prior to this one clearly called out why you want to make these changes before “tanking system is bad.” You encountered bad tanks in dungeons and you were inconvenienced as a DPS. You wanted to make changes to tanks at the dungeon level (lowest common denominator). There is no other way to take your posts. If you feel like I am talking down to you, that is on you.

If you truly were playing from 1.0, then you would know the evolution of tanking over time from 1.0 to today. You should have picked up on all of the context clues that SE is making tanking more welcoming through simplification of kits and encounters.

What is making this whole thing boring is simplification: pure and simple. Pushing that one CD to negate a planned TB is boring in ShB. Tanking giant-mc-wall-boss-can’t-move #6 this expansion is not entertaining. Not being able to pull from Boss 1 to Boss 2, unwalled in Expert dungeons is ho-hum.

That’s SE’s decision to keep streamlining and simplifying roles no wants to play. The downside of that is boredom and people leaving the role who were entertained by it.

By the way, SE has three MMOs: FF11, Dragon Quest 10, and FF14. Tanking in FF14, which is streamlined and quick tanking, is much more preferred over FF11 (I have never played DQ10, so no comments about that).

In FF11, you were tanking ONE mob, even in basic content. Trying to tank anything over one mob in almost all circumstances would result in death and undo hours of progress. You had to have support (RDM, BRD, and Corsair) constantly keep other enemies asleep as to not wipe the party. The outgoing damage from enemies, even at-level enemies, were above and beyond what a single tank can handle.

You know what Paladins did to tank in FF11? Auto-attacks, a few abilities on multi-minute cooldowns to negate some damage, a weaponskill when the gained 100 TP (TP is something you earned in FF11), and spamming spells without trying to have your MP running out (mainly Flashes and Cures). PLDs didn’t have a Tank Stance, so other party members had to control their own actions to make sure they didn’t get hate. FF11’s Provoke, didn’t put the user at the top of the hate list, it added a flat value of hate.

SE went from FF11's tanking to FF14’s tanking. No need to worry about MP management, TP management, securing hate, none of that. Even in ARR, tanking was no where close to a risky as it was in FF11. So yes, this FF14 tanking is the best SE can do with the goals they have in mind.

FF11, never accomplished the population increase that FF14 has. Some of FF14's success in this department is by adding convince to the role (that and not having to spend hours getting back lost EXP from dieing).

*falls down in worship*

Someone said it, and it's f***king beautiful.

[Furious]

No thats not what am saying not saying make paladin so stupid even the worst of the worst can play them what I am trying to say is squire-enix shouldn't encourage this behaviour. but every expansion they do so. by overloading tanks with even more dumb buttons pretty much functions same way as the old ones do. or have loads of buttons that pretty much same thing but copy/pasted for more buttons means more fun pc community. even if those buttons are just copies of the olds one you been using for whole expansion. I want creativity I want to feel like a tank i want class fantasy most importantly I dont want to be a flipping dps job.

are saying pressing a single button press takes more skill more brain-power (watch mind 80% of tanking community lacks right now) then keeping rotation perfect up 100% of the time. cause if you done you lose your defensives cooldowns most likely die my suggestion isn't making it easy. its unforgiving as hell. you mess up once. you press wrong button, you fuck up on 123 combo. your dead tank no healer is gonna be able to save you. my suggestion requires you have skill at your job. your punished hard really hard if you mess up something so simple

Except that you wouldn't need "perfect rotation" to keep it up 100% of the time. It simply cannot be 100% mandatory for survival, or 100% tight on rotation. There are far, far, FAR too many places that break the rotation for that to be the case; any down time at all would utterly destroy the tank otherwise. So, it will have flexibility in timing, and thus will be stupidly easy to keep up, as well as literally removing buttons for no apparent gain other than "punish the tank if they don't do a DPS ROTATION perfectly".

Pressing one button is more skillful than your rotation idea because it requires active engagement with the idea of when to use defense, rather than "do what you would already be doing anyway or you die". It's a terrible idea.

now your down talking to me like am some noobie doesn't know what there talkin about and ive been playing this game sense before realm reborn was released. so don't tell me what is what isn't i have seen it all. this is not about "Oh met one bad tank now there all like that" no its not bout that. this is about bad game design. this about being a tank. don't care if my idea is bad. or not sure we already talked about that earlier. and came to understanding it was bad. however. topic changed to: just give you update. state of tanking how it sucks.

this the best can do rather its new damage mitagion abilities or another stupid dps button copy/paste job another button we already have. dont understand how anyone can find fun. this is squire-enix game company making games for longiest time actually has 2 mmos. this is best they can come up with? why isn't anyone expressing there frustration why isn't anyone saying this shit boring. dont care about it being 123 or being 123456 combos as long as that combo isn't just

"potency damage" I mean what the hell? guys seriously still havent gotten it yet i mean come on

You're likely being talked down to because your ideas are nonsensical across the board. No idea you have yet produced does anything to address the issue you post it as a solution to. The solution you propose here removes complexity, removes defensive-specific buttons, and adds passive, non-interactive defensive power to the offensive aspect of tanks, with no relevant gain to feeling like a "tank" that I can see other than what you have invented in your head. Oh, and it is hyper-punishing to tanks who somehow manage to fail despite this increased simplicity because.. reasons?

Tanks already feel like tanks, when you are playing a tank. You walk into the mobs, they all hit you, they don't hit other people, and you are able to use your defensive abilities to live, and not only live, but make the life of other players easier. People who already play tank are telling you that your take on what you think tanks need is simply not relevant whatsoever to how the role plays right now.