The trouble with telling tanks W2W pulls are a mandatory norm.

[Nishira]

I hate quoting on this forum Rinhi, so I'll just respond this way I didn't mean dungeons or raids with making things easier, I meant duties you fail, or trials with the.. echoes mechanic? The game itself is helpful if you stumble. It wants you to succeed, to continue with the story. It's not out to make it super challenging in the content that is designed for everyone. So for better or worse, the game is ok with people not playing optimally.

Funnily enough I do have strong anxiety, struggled with depression a long time and suffer from migraines, lots of them. Whatever I do doesn't impact the migraine usually, so in the end I raided and led healer teams with migraines. And sometimes I was not 100% brilliant at moments like that. I try to avoid doing dungeons when I have them, but I have them so often that it would stall everything I do so much of the time, that I proceed anyway at times. People live, we make it, it could be worse.. well you get the idea. So yes, sometimes people will feel rather crappy and still play. And sometimes whatever is causing it will impact your reaction or processing speed. Sometimes anxiety can make me freeze up (fun on unexpected big pulls and my brain goes EEEEEE), which is something I've heard more often from fellow healers.

I personally think it is so much better if a community is accepting of non-optimal. If it's not a big deal. Because effectively you enlarge people's comfort zone that way, instead of restricting it. People stop playing tanks and healers because they are scared to screw up. They are scared to make people upset and angry with them. And to then say "Good riddance, you were apparently not cut out for it" is a *beep* reaction which I do see happening. It's just a game, support people, have fun with them, laugh with them, forgive mistakes, forgive limitations, let it revolve around the people and the shared fun instead of the clock and 'optimal this' and 'optimal that', and efficiency and all that crap. Bleh.

I greatly dislike being a burden to a group, so I will always try my best, try be prepared etc. But I'd rather the atmosphere is such that at times you get people who blissfully unaware waltz in and have no clue, and that that is ok, part of the random 'no idea what I'm signing up for, yolo', than that everyone can only join in if they perform up to standards other players set. If you do that in your FC, in PF, in your raids obviously that is fine. But we're talking DF here afaik. And then it should be ok for people to play at their comfort levels, instead of yours.

[Xirean]

I personally think it is so much better if a community is accepting of non-optimal. If it's not a big deal. Because effectively you enlarge people's comfort zone that way, instead of restricting it. People stop playing tanks and healers because they are scared to screw up. They are scared to make people upset and angry with them. And to then say "Good riddance, you were apparently not cut out for it" is a *beep* reaction which I do see happening. It's just a game, support people, have fun with them, laugh with them, forgive mistakes, forgive limitations, let it revolve around the people and the shared fun instead of the clock and 'optimal this' and 'optimal that', and efficiency and all that crap. Bleh.

I greatly dislike being a burden to a group, so I will always try my best, try be prepared etc. But I'd rather the atmosphere is such that at times you get people who blissfully unaware waltz in and have no clue, and that that is ok, part of the random 'no idea what I'm signing up for, yolo', than that everyone can only join in if they perform up to standards other players set. If you do that in your FC, in PF, in your raids obviously that is fine. But we're talking DF here afaik. And then it should be ok for people to play at their comfort levels, instead of yours.

Again I ask if that is really so common? The appeal I see people making is a baseline standard of basic proficiency. Now that line may mean something different to different people, but every time I see this argument brought it, it often comes off as expecting people to know how to play the game at all is unacceptable. Also as far as toxicity goes, expecting perfection is mirrored by expecting mediocrity. I've straight up had a healer refuse to heal a tank because they tried to do a double pull once. They didn't even try. On the flip side I've seen healers rescue tanks into adds or throw a dot on a pac to get bigger pulls.

People are trying to figure out what baseline is acceptable and in my overall experience that tends towards mostly larger pulls.

[Rinhi]

I hate quoting on this forum Rinhi, so I'll just respond this way I didn't mean dungeons or raids with making things easier, I meant duties you fail, or trials with the.. echoes mechanic? The game itself is helpful if you stumble. It wants you to succeed, to continue with the story. It's not out to make it super challenging in the content that is designed for everyone. So for better or worse, the game is ok with people not playing optimally.

I personally think it is so much better if a community is accepting of non-optimal. If it's not a big deal. Because effectively you enlarge people's comfort zone that way, instead of restricting it. People stop playing tanks and healers because they are scared to screw up. They are scared to make people upset and angry with them. And to then say "Good riddance, you were apparently not cut out for it" is a *beep* reaction which I do see happening. It's just a game, support people, have fun with them, laugh with them, forgive mistakes, forgive limitations, let it revolve around the people and the shared fun instead of the clock and 'optimal this' and 'optimal that', and efficiency and all that crap. Bleh.

I greatly dislike being a burden to a group, so I will always try my best, try be prepared etc. But I'd rather the atmosphere is such that at times you get people who blissfully unaware waltz in and have no clue, and that that is ok, part of the random 'no idea what I'm signing up for, yolo', than that everyone can only join in if they perform up to standards other players set. If you do that in your FC, in PF, in your raids obviously that is fine. But we're talking DF here afaik. And then it should be ok for people to play at their comfort levels, instead of yours.

I feel you with the quoting, sadly the forum software is archaic and annoying to use and it's missing important features like PMs
I know you meant the Echoes mechanic, but that also furthers my point; instead of trying to teach the player to play at a higher level, the game just lowers it's difficulty, in content that should NOT be lowered in difficulty because it's already very easy

the community IS accepting of non-optimal play, even the 'tryhard raiders' this forum loves to endlessly rag on (not you, just saying in general), but what """"we"""" don't like is people making excuses for people they don't know and haven't played with just because "they have to", because those 'tryhard raiders' are bad and from WoW and toxic and all that, even when all they do is give out advice and complain on the forums about someone being toxic in return and just continue to do the dungeon/raid/trial with the person that was toxic to them without a word

as I said before, I'd say go look for the threads that were created around similar topics and see how the discussion usually always resulted in a certain group of people needlessly attacking the other group because the latter wants people to get better and actually tries to help people get better, but the forum search is downright abhorrent so I wouldn't blame you for not doing that! (though you could find some of them if you go through my post history, but that's 450 messages or so :P)

like, when I started out, I was one of those bad players I "complain" about now, I didn't know the rotation of monk and didn't care, I spammed cure 2 and medica 2 even if everyone was at full health and never used my OCGDs and guess what? I got tons of commendations for playing like that, even if it was objectively bad, so I thought I was the greatest in the world until my friends showed me just how bad I was doing, sometimes even less DPS than the healer or tank in dungeons where I really shouldn't be doing less damage than either (unless GNB because that's broken between 60 and 70)

I never got any advice from anyone, even if I did 0 damage as a healer and that was after I had already maxed out a class, no idea how many dungeons I made take wayyyyy longer than they needed to be by doing that - and the community enables this, no, forces this by hiding behind this fake niceness towards bad players as it can be seen on the forums, where you get attacked for wanting people to put in some effort to learn their class, something which I didn't do

"Because effectively you enlarge people's comfort zone that way, instead of restricting it"

but that's exactly what enabling single pulling in leveling dungeons is, those tanks will just learn bad habits that way, the same way single pulling will form bad habits in healers and dpses as well. enlarging your comfort zone would entail that those players would actually try to pull bigger, but once they feel comfortable, you know very well that they won't change because 'it worked before so it will work now' until they get a reality check and will most likely blame everyone but themselves because those bad habits have formed over dozens of hours of playtime, enforced by a dozen of other players who either formed the same habits or who are too scared to speak up

tanking was so easy that, even though I didn't know how to play either a dps or healer 'properly', I could immediately pick up and after the first few big pulls I made turned out fine, the "tankxiety" went away and was replaced with feeling indestructible - but those tankxious players don't usually even attempt to pull big, nor do they use cooldowns, in my experience

edit: I apologize again for my word salad, I don't know what the enter button does and sometimes go off on a tangent when trying to make a point, so please bear with that