The trouble with telling tanks W2W pulls are a mandatory norm.

[Nishira]

Hmm I find lack of nuance usually more the territory of those who suggest one way, and only that way. And when they defend their point, they’ll often grasp for the complete opposite extreme to prove it. Defending those who wish to learn, or who don’t feel comfortable with the biggest, baddest pulls is not automatically defending the worst of the worst players, that’s such a silly argument.

Grey areas and all that. There usually is a huge spectrum of circumstances to consider. Which is why ‘the One Way’ just sucks most of the time imho.

[Yeol]

All I'm saying really, is it would be nice if the media side of this game had a bit more patience with players who might need more time to build confidence, instead of putting pressure on them all the time to perform to the same standard as highly experienced players.

Because by far the dominant narrative online is go big or go home. In game, it doesn't work like that, at least in the DF.

Like you said in your earlier post, big pulls are not hard or impressive. Also a small correction, the DF standard is to pull big, even in leveling dungeons.

Most people will excuse a sprout tank. They're likely to encourage the tank to pull more than 1 group of mobs and that's about it (Not really asking for W2W).

Most complaints on Reddit and the forums are not really aimed towards sprout tanks. But towards players who have multiple jobs at max level. What is their excuse for doing small pulls?

> Gets into leveling dungungeon
> tank is not sprout
> dungeon is not one of the exceptions for big pulls
> tank proceeds to do single pulls
> check tank profile and find out they have 3 jobs at max level
Why does this happen?

[RocciaSolida]

Playing properly? In MY game!? Unacceptable!

[Illmaeran]

> Gets into leveling dungungeon
> tank is not sprout
> dungeon is not one of the exceptions for big pulls
> tank proceeds to do single pulls
> check tank profile and find out they have 3 jobs at max level
Why does this happen?

Is one of those max level jobs a tank?

Does said max level tank job happen to be the one they're playing?

If the answer is no to either question, cut the person some slack and don't expect them to W2W pull; chances are good they're leveling that job and don't have comprehensive experience with it yet.

[Nyarlha]

Does said max level tank job happen to be the one they're playing?

W2W works EXACTLY the same for every tank job. They basically all have the same 2 buttons AOE rotation, the same defensive CDs (with different names) to rotate, and they all have sprint/taunt/ranged ability. If you know how to pull big with one, you know how to pull big on all of them. If you have one 80 tank, you have no excuse, even if it's another tank job you are leveling.

[Awha]

I would have to hard disagree. I've always classed that dungeon as a tank check. Sure the damage is a significant step up from Cutters Cry so healers don't get it easy but it's about what you pull, when and where that determines how well that dungeon goes. Even a well prepared player would still be using level 28 accessories in there and most new players will have a hodge podge of previous dungeon gear, meaning a generally low ilevel. Then they have to navigate environmental AoE, dangerous wandering mobs, mobs that spawn by surprise and hit really hard and overall quite a bit higher damage than they are used to. Many of these things will be new to a newer player and to top it off it's the first dungeon where you really should pull with provoke in certain circumstances. A sprout tank has a lot to cope with for a first run, so double pulling is almost certainly a bad idea. A team of vets? sure, but not learning sprouts.



In the actual game? not really, certainly not very often. It's places like forums and reddit that apply the pressure. My other reply in this post I think is a good example of why this narrative should tone it down a bit. We have a sprout explosion right now and playing DPS recently I've seen more Leroy tanks than ever before, they are getting bad advice from somewhere.

That is fine if you disagree but I also disagree that it is tank check. More so a heal check imo but even then it is not that unpredictable. Sure if we are talking w2w I would aggro that stone is rough, but double pulls from the start? The difference is minimal imo.

So I guess we are at an impasse. I would agree that w2w stone is borderline impossible I know I have never been able to heal through a complete w2w pull in that dungeon.

[MirielleLavandre]

I main tank and have all at 80, though this means I haven't leveled one in forever so forget what it may be like when not completely synced down. However, I really think double pulls should start at latest in Tam Tara and continue on until maybe HW dungeons, where full W2W should be happening. I mean, how can you not get bored as any role with just 6 mobs? Even sprouts should be learning to at least double pull early if for nothing else but to not be bored.

As some have said, single pulls don't even require a tank, much less any mitigation. Though as an aside I've yet to see a video of a Shadowbringers dungeon completed without a tank, though probably some of the early ones could be now. Not discontinuing tanks at all, though - as I said it is my main, but I just don't see how it can be fun to play if you don't have to do basically anything but be a sub par dps (single pulls). Now for those who boost or just start out with gunbreaker...not sure about those folks.

[Goji1639]

> Gets into leveling dungungeon
> tank is not sprout
> dungeon is not one of the exceptions for big pulls
> tank proceeds to do single pulls
> check tank profile and find out they have 3 jobs at max level
Why does this happen?

It probably happens because the tank is sick of dying.

Leveling dungeons generally mean either sprout or alt healers/DPS. Add the fact that in leveling dungeons the W2W pulls are a lot uglier; enemies hit harder; tanks gear isn't ilvl capped; the tank has basically none of his sustain options available to him, and the urge to pull big gets beaten out of you pretty quick.

When running with a Healer I know I've W2Wd Stone Vigil, Dzmeal, AV and in dungeons like Satasha/Copperbell I'll even pull everything into the boss room. In randoms, however, it 100% depends on my mood.

[Rinhi]

Now for those who boost or just start out with gunbreaker...not sure about those folks.

that's not an excuse, though, the person who picked gnb as their first tank still experienced at least a dozen dungeons as either a dps or healer and thus should've picked up the very basics of tanking in that time

Unless they buy the game and a job boost to 70 on a random job, story skip, and then move on to main Gunbreaker :/

true, true, but I doubt there are that many players like that (hopefully)

Hmm I find lack of nuance usually more the territory of those who suggest one way, and only that way. And when they defend their point, they’ll often grasp for the complete opposite extreme to prove it. Defending those who wish to learn, or who don’t feel comfortable with the biggest, baddest pulls is not automatically defending the worst of the worst players, that’s such a silly argument.

Grey areas and all that. There usually is a huge spectrum of circumstances to consider. Which is why ‘the One Way’ just sucks most of the time imho.

but that's the thing; single pulling doesn't teach you anything but to waste your and everyone else's time, even in the 'harder' leveling dungeons and teach inexperienced players that it's okay to cure spam, okay to single target vs group of mobs and ok to not use any mitigation because they never ever get in any danger or situation on how to all their unlocked skills
I'm more than fine to triple or even double pull once I notice that the healer isn't fully comfortable with a w2w and we wipe or just barely make it, but I'll also try to help them get more comfortable, too, by either increasing the amounts of mobs I pull, or, if I'm the healer and the tank isn't pulling as much as he could, by grabbing 1-2 mobs to add to the pile they already aggro'd and bring them to him - and usually by the end of the dungeon, they've stopped single pulling /shrug
but my issue is that many people are willingly defending people who either do not want to learn, who are set in their ways to do the least amount of effort they need to do to pass something, even if it takes double or triple the time an average run takes, all just to appear as nice and helpful to the rest of the community and instead attack anyone that actually tries to help players get better, as seen on the plethora of threads about similar issues, because, again, it's perfectly fine to be toxic against those 'toxic elitist tryhard asshat raiders' and all that
if you go through several of those threads, you will see one thing and that is, apart from some obvious trolls, that the people who advocate for W2W in this thread are the ones either putting in some effort to help other players, make good points in their posts and are met with vitriol and hate by those "please be nice uwu" people because they just have to defend bad players because that's what this nice community is about, right? because I don't understand why else some people would be so adamant in defending outright hostile and toxic behaviour by bad actors who want to do absolutely nothing in any kind of content they queue up for

[MirielleLavandre]

that's not an excuse, though, the person who picked gnb as their first tank still experienced at least a dozen dungeons as either a dps or healer and thus should've picked up the very basics of tanking in that time

Unless they buy the game and a job boost to 70 on a random job, story skip, and then move on to main Gunbreaker :/