Dungeons are becoming style over substance.

[Goji1639]

Can't say I see much substance in the pointless dead end routes and diversions in early dungeons. FFXIV gearing towards linear dungeons that are heavier on visual spectacle and more focused on combat are 100% the right direction for this game to move in, imo.

Make the combat more challenging and add a better reward structure then we'll really have something.

[Illmaeran]

Some of the ARR dungeons were really good STARTS to developing interesting dungeon experiences, but unfortunately instead of building on mechanics like the keys in Haukke, or the pads in Qarn, they've optimized the fun out of the dungeons following that era.

Vanilla, and in some cases TBC, WoW dungeons were like this until people got tired of running them over and over and over and ended up pushing people to be the most optimally efficient they could possibly be to get through the dungeons as fast as possible due to boredom. That's how the dungeons and raids ended up becoming a one-way path of trash>boss>trash>boss>trash>ad nauseam. XIV is no different; due to simple repetition, players will end up wanting the most efficient run through the dungeons to get their daily grind over with as quickly as possible. Stopping to smell the roses is only nice the first couple of times. After that, any arbitrary delay becomes an annoyance for repeat-runners (cutscenes for new people, anyone?) that will cause people to complain that dungeons take too long/aren't optimized for quick runs to get said daily rewards.

It's a lose-lose proposition for both the dev team and players wanting more challenge and efficiency at the same time.

[shao32]

There was a time in this game history where the dungeons use to be good content i loved to run, not only perfectly balanced in dificulty and mechanics but on desing offering a really challenging experience, basically what i would call substance.

I used to love go into dungeons every day before SE decide they should set the bar to low that the only thing you do there is facerolling your keyboar/sitting on your gamepad to pass the "content", i loved to run roulettes even if i didn't need them just for help bcs it was fun, find a group with problems and offer advice and make them work together to finally complete that boss they strugle doing was so satisfying, i miss when content was mean to be about teamwork and not just walk together and required more than just 2 buttoms for success.

So i find pretty hilarious when someone say this is about making FFXIV to WOW when this game have a history when his dungeons use to be better, waaaaaaay better before later SB/SHB walking simulator doctrine, i hope they do better, substance is as important as style and they have just throw to much substance out the window this last years it's really boring now.

[FawkesWyznfarr]

I agree, but a good portion of the community is easily amused by keys jingling so why even try.

[ForteNightshade]

I would say that the devs are on record saying they do not intend to occupy all of your potential gaming time and that, should the content not be enough for you from patch to patch, you should take a break and try other games that scratch whatever itch you need. Not saying you need to unsubscribe or quit or whatever.

Personally, everything I have is at cap, with exception of getting all of Blu done.. so I just log in and do my daily retainer money grab, chat for a few before I load up whatever other game I’m playing. Currently finished the Ori series and recommend it, especially on hard mode!

In my wife’s case, she doesn’t even touch the game outside of hanging with friends for months at a time, so that when she does find time between her dramas/Netflix, she has a good chunk of content to do.

…that said, I would love to see more things to do outside of the standard loop. Like legit engaging mini games or more interesting PvP maps or game modes.

Which would be fine... if I wasn't done with content within a week or two. In fact, I did take a break throughout Verse after clearing the tier; logging in only to cap and doing literally nothing else. When I came back, I finished up all of 5.3's content by the weekend. So even with a break, there just wasn't enough. The problem is longevity. Content simply doesn't have a long enough life cycle unless you play very sparingly.

And Drakonic brings up the other problem. I can't unsub without losing my house. So the whole "take a break" aspect is a nice PR spin but not exactly feasible.

[Yshtola_Rhul]

Vanilla, and in some cases TBC, WoW dungeons were like this until people got tired of running them over and over and over and ended up pushing people to be the most optimally efficient they could possibly be to get through the dungeons as fast as possible due to boredom. That's how the dungeons and raids ended up becoming a one-way path of trash>boss>trash>boss>trash>ad nauseam. XIV is no different; due to simple repetition, players will end up wanting the most efficient run through the dungeons to get their daily grind over with as quickly as possible. Stopping to smell the roses is only nice the first couple of times. After that, any arbitrary delay becomes an annoyance for repeat-runners (cutscenes for new people, anyone?) that will cause people to complain that dungeons take too long/aren't optimized for quick runs to get said daily rewards.

It's a lose-lose proposition for both the dev team and players wanting more challenge and efficiency at the same time.

I think this is incredibly important.
People love to get on their forums, their discords, and genuinely critique (or just rage) about certain aspects of the game,

But the thing is, the majority of the playerbase pushed it like this.

These designs are a direct representation of what the players are doing, despite what they may say.
I think its good you brought up WoW, I do, as it's the longest running consecutive MMO and a good pointer for general MMO design and how it changes. They did also tried this, and then stopped. We all love pretty things and interesting things, but the core gameplay loop of an MMO is grind, and grind does not lend itself to a long patience. How many of us have had videos up playing in the background while running Aurum Vale for the 310th time on our last trip to 80?

For most people it stops being about enjoying the world, design, or even combat, and simply ticking a box.
Take a look at all the people complaining about the Bozjan front and DR. This is still new content for a lot of people, and yet, they're already getting shamed on the forums for not knowing the fights well and not being the most efficient. People just want efficiency. They want to get in, and get out in 20 minutes or less.


I personally would LOVE to see a return to form in FFXIV's case, but I know, genuinely and with a tinge of nostalgia, that will never return. It's not what the majority playerbase wants.

[TaleraRistain]

Which would be fine... if I wasn't done with content within a week or two. In fact, I did take a break throughout Verse after clearing the tier; logging in only to cap and doing literally nothing else. When I came back, I finished up all of 5.3's content by the weekend. So even with a break, there just wasn't enough. The problem is longevity. Content simply doesn't have a long enough life cycle unless you play very sparingly.

And Drakonic brings up the other problem. I can't unsub without losing my house. So the whole "take a break" aspect is a nice PR spin but not exactly feasible.

That's just not their game design, though, and they've made that abundantly clear. This game will never be a never-ending fount of stimulation. They give us content and if we need stimulation outside that, they expect we'll look entirely outside this game or find ways to stimulate ourselves, ie achievement/mount/minion chasing, Gold Saucer, glamour, etc.

[ForteNightshade]

That's just not their game design, though, and they've made that abundantly clear. This game will never be a never-ending fount of stimulation. They give us content and if we need stimulation outside that, they expect we'll look entirely outside this game or find ways to stimulate ourselves, ie achievement/mount/minion chasing, Gold Saucer, glamour, etc.

Where it I ever imply an "never-ending fount of stimulation?" You really need to stop making these assumptions. I'm neither expecting nor asking for endless content but rather some longevity in the content offered so I have a reason to keep playing beyond a couple weeks. A patch cycle doesn't need to entertain for sixteen weeks, but it should last more than two or three. Or rather have something like Mythic+, a more developed Deep Dungeon and etc for players that enjoy a more lengthily content grind.

Regardless, I'm well accustom to their design philosophy but am allowed to criticise it.

[Theodric]

I just hope we see more content along the lines of Delubrum Reginae as we move forward. Everything from the atmosphere to the story to the mechanics appealed to me. It's not insanely difficult but neither can players just get by through standing in AoE's and shrugging them off.

[Canadane]

Would like some mechanics where the 4 players are split up to do a small puzzle or something and can only get to the boss when all 4 players do what's needed. Or have some sneak off during a boss fight to trigger something/ect.

This would be super cool.