I hope we never see a system of essences or lost abilities again

[Fawkes]

If they were designed differently it could work. Like if essences persisted the way the honor buffs do.

Also I think there are too many essences. And we don't need NQ/HQ versions of everything. The ones that don't increase your dps made more sense in Eureka, where survival was actually a concern, but here we don't really need them. If they want to put dps increases on a thing they need to learn the balance card lesson and put it on all of them, and then maybe you could make one essence that increases dps and movement speed and another that increases dps and evasion.

Also they're all too limited, the fact that only specific jobs can use each thing makes the system less interesting. Especially when a lot of them just do different amounts of the same thing. Also it makes it harder for people who want to focus on playing a specific job, so having this content double as a way to level alt jobs doesn't mesh well with it.

Also the droprates feel too unbalanced. When playing Zadnor I felt like I should make a bug report, that they probably had 10x lost bubble fragments as a placeholder drop and forgot to change it for half of the things in the zone. The quirky extra actions that you don't really need fall from the sky, but you always have to go out of your way to farm the essences that you need. It feels backwards.

[Jin-]

Reward from the raid is less what you get by selling those items. No wonder many sell them instead

[Packetdancer]

I actually love the Lost Action/Essence system in concept; swapping in different actions and essences means that one healer might be playing a very different style of job within the Bozja content than another healer is.

However, yeah, the consumable nature of it does disincline more casual players from participating fully. (And note I don't mean "casual" in any bad sense here, I just mean "people not used to burning through raid consumables"; folks who raid more seriously are used to content having an inherent expense, be it an expense measured in time for crafting your own raid food/pots, or measured in gil if you just buy what you need off the motherboard.)

Worse still, I'd argue that for efficiency's sake there are only a handful of essences that are considered "correct" to use on various jobs. It's really cool that a melee DPS can -- with the right essences and lost actions -- be a healer, or a healer can be a tank, etc. But now that we're at a point where people want to speed-run the content... like, the only reason a healer is going to have an Ordained essence up is for the higher chance of Lost Death working during CLL, and most healers I know will start with Aetherweaver, swap to Ordained just for the prisoners, and then swap back to Aetherweaver (or even Profane). In DR or Dalriada, you don't even really have reason for that, so healers will almost always be on Aetherweaver or Profane.

This means that a lot of drops end up feeling 'useless', because while they might be really neat for some stuff in theory, they aren't the most purely efficient (and so are not really the 'desired' drops). Lost Bubble is a great spell -- who doesn't want more health? -- but so much of what will kill you in Bozja are mechanics where either you do the mechanic correctly or you die, so "more health" isn't really priority number one in a lot of cases.

I do think it's a neat system, and when I was running DR savage pre-Zadnor, the fact that we needed to plan out holsters pretty carefully (and switch to specific actions during specific parts of the run) was actually a significant part of the experience, and I think is what the system is intended to function like. But I don't think it functions like that in most of the Bozja content—and arguably, now that we have rays and new/more powerful stuff from Zadnor, I don't even think it necessarily functions like that in DR Savage any longer either.

So I'd almost rather see it used in the next Deep Dungeon (assuming we get one). Deep Dungeons do have the pomander system, yes, but I think the Lost Actions system would be a good fit for a procedurally-generated roguelike. Imagine if you could take in a tank and, if you found the right things inside, also function as a healer. Or a DPS could be a tank. That would make for fascinating party composition on serious deep dungeon runs, and would make solo runs a lot more interesting as well.

(If we just get another Exploratory Mission zone with a Logos/Lost Actions system, mind you, I'll still enjoy it; I do actually like Bozja, and I like Eureka. But I also get why in Bozja in particular people are not engaging with the Lost Actions/Essences system as much as they might.)

[SeverianLyonesse]

I agree with most people here that the consumable nature of the actions makes them extremely unfun. Too many barriers of entry add up: people not being very good at the game, people only wanting to speed through as little content as possible to get smaller goals (relics, mounts, etc.), and some combination of not learning Bozja mechanics and hoarding essences.

And, while I wouldn't classify Eureka/Bozja as top level content, they are definitely designed to be slightly more difficult than MSQ content. Which is a double-edged sword, because on the one hand consumables have already been a part of high-tier raiding. But I'm of the opinion that "borrowed power" is not fun at any level of play, and even if it were I don't think Eureka/Bozja are high enough level to merit that kind of treatment. If the fun is supposed to be in the group dynamic and not individual player skill, then we shouldn't have the potential for such disparity between player stats. Setting everyone at level 80 and making the difference depend on consumables is kind of a mistake, as no one really has anything to progress toward (positive reinforcement) and instead more often than not feels lacking in lost skills or party capability (negative reinforcement).

HOWEVER, I do recognize that we can't simply remove consumables without finding something to replace them, since they do provide a needed motivation to grind in the current system. And this is a necessary feature because we need a reason to keep players coming back to the map to keep the instances populated and the group dynamic present.

All told, I believe that not only is OP's observation that specifically the consumables are what ruin Eureka/Bozja, but that it was the consumables that were the most tedious aspect of Eureka. I like the idea someone put forth of having them be permanent leveled abilities, but that doesn't solve the issue of motivating players to come back and grind. If I would propose a solution, I would just have the devs introduce new fates and loot drops every month or two to keep things fresh and motivate players to keep coming back. Maybe even have instance-specific seasonal events to keep those game modes populated.

[_Koneko_]

it's a decent concept but they should have made them permanent specially with the low drop rate

[Liam_Harper]

I wish they would make them far more accessible rather than remove them. For some reason SE is dead-set stubborn that things like Essences should be some sort of privilege that players will be happy to grind for.

Contributing to your team should not be a special privilege that costs a lot of time or gil. Gear you farm once and it's yours. Food and Pots are 1% increases. Essences and Actions combined can multiply your dps by several times. Essences are a great system that lets us do all sorts of crazy things with our classes. Let us have fun with it.

Either make them permanent once learned, or increase fragment droprates drastically.

[Lunalepsy]

Simply put: when I go into DR, I am prepared. I have a deep essence of the skirmisher ready; I always have my lost offensive abilities so I can drop the occasional 100k+ swing on the boss. I had a really hard time learning the instance the first 2-3 goes, but I always had my kit squared away.

I don't blame people for dying during DR - it's a very, very unforgiving raid when it comes to mistakes, and not recognizing patterns. But I am so, SO tired of seeing 75 or 80 or even 90-minute clears of the place because three quarters of the raid couldn't be chuffed to either farm essences, or spend a few hundred thousand gil on the market board to buy them.

And, honestly, seeing as the situation is not improving, and understanding that human nature (either a combination of inexperience or laziness) is not going to change, I'd like SE to never burden us with the 'borrowed power' of essences again. Don't balance PUGed content around relying on people to be responsible - don't do it. It's one thing to ask a coordinated group of folks in a FC-run dungeon to be accountable - if they aren't, the people in charge will sort things out to their liking. But to create a raid where you're asking a bunch of strangers to be answerable to others? Well, it doesn't work. And, in my experience - barring the occasional (glorious) 30-minute clear of DR - it doesn't work most of the time.

I'm not chain-running DR anymore; I have my first weapon, and I'm just doing a clear a day for emotions and artifacts. But my GOD is it a chore. And it shouldn't be, because when everything is working right, that place is damned fun.

That's how they keep you busy.

[Recon1o6]

The consumable part makes no sense for skills/abilites. Item consumables, fair enough

The ability to have extra skills, some which you normally dont get, or others lost things that shouldnt be removed, is quite fun, both for the player and for the job designers since they get to make some ridiculous things. Seraph strike on whm for example is deserving of being an actual gcd rather than a lost action. Hiding the effects of the pure essences however can go fuck itself. Information should not be hidden from the player when it affects the job gameplay.

Plus it was for the first time in 2 years we had anything resembling mana management on none rdm. That being flare star, font of magic and the others which was welcome change of pace.


DR is proof though phoenix downs should really be none unique

[GeminiReed]

My only comment about people dying is - I also agree with OP- I don't blame people for dying either - but - please accept your raise ...

I've mostly given up on Bozja with one DR run left for my first artifact. Why is that? Because the party I was in in my last (and first!) Dalriada run had no healers. Every time I accepted a raise I was dead in two GCD's thanks to the raidwides because I didn't get healed.

If I ever go back to Bozja and I wind up in that same situation you can bet big money that I'm just going to lay on the floor.

And note I don't mean "casual" in any bad sense here, I just mean "people not used to burning through raid consumables"; folks who raid more seriously are used to content having an inherent expense, be it an expense measured in time for crafting your own raid food/pots, or measured in gil if you just buy what you need off the motherboard.

I've raided in a few games and here too so I'm more than willing to "buy in". However 100k gil will roughly cover my food and pots for the tier. 100k gil in essences and lost actions might (don't forget the RNG!) net me two of the Essences and a viable LA or two demanded by the tryhards. Alternatively I could go burn my Saturdays farming. Or just call the system trash and find something better to do.

This, the two-strikes BS, and the "no YOU be the role nobody else wants to do" made three fun instances something to be avoided.

[ICountFrom0]

Some of what can be done with lost actions is amazing. Taking out the dual in a single hit, wow. Chaincasting flare down to nearly instant cast, wow. Mimic and throw with an organized party, egads.

Problem isn't the lost actions, problem is the implementation.

Consumables. People are afraid to use them. Specially if instead they could sell them.

Combine this with the lowest common denominator playstyle encouraged in public runs, well...

This is what you get.

Don't blame the lost actions, blame unrealistic dev expecations. They thought we'd go in with the strongest things, every single time, every single one of us. That we'd always get to see people prepared to one hit kill the boss. That we'd all carry a reflect and we'd all use it on the raidwide to one cycle that boss.

Trying to keep up with you
And I don't know if I can do it
Oh no I've said too much
I haven't said enough
I thought that I heard you laughing
I thought that I heard you sing
I think I thought I saw you try


but that was just a dream, just a dream, just a dream....