Red Mage: Potential adjustments

[Gruntler]

Wouldn't the existence of this hypothetical DoT change how people approach Manafication? I mean in that context, instead of waiting to hit 47-49 mana, there's a chance players would adjust to lower numbers like 43-45 to account for the passively generated mana. At least that what I think would happen.

On the topic of fun, this is the opposite of fun. RDM already has a layer of doing 'quick maths' on the go to predict where you'll end up after the next pair of actions. It doesn't need a 'Balance Gauge Over Time' effect on top of that to make that more 'fun.'

I like knowing what my resources are, and how much hitting a button will change that resource, and seeing that resource change.

Having a BGoT will not improve that gameplay. And having a BGoT (something that is not fun) in order to justify the addition of a DoT (which is not fun) sounds like bad design that doesn't fit the flow of the job.

Shirrikhan nails the problem immediately:

Yes, it'd add resource per minute, but so too would increasing any other, less finnicky, source of Mana generation.

And imagine accidentally hitting (would-be Enchanted) Redoublement .2 seconds before your last per-3-seconds MP tick... Or, heck, just the awkwardness of having to wait for the DoT tick before you finish said combo.

To add to this. Whether or not your Redoublement is enchanted is based not only on server ticks but latency, because your client also has to know you're at the right balance guage in order to set up the right ability. So you have Server Ticks AND Latency as issues to contend with! You end up in a situation where you either risk the server tick or you potentially overcap.

This is just begging for 'feelsbad' gameplay. Heavensward Design died with Heavensward, let's not ressurect it, guys!

[Duelle]

On the topic of fun, this is the opposite of fun. RDM already has a layer of doing 'quick maths' on the go to predict where you'll end up after the next pair of actions. It doesn't need a 'Balance Gauge Over Time' effect on top of that to make that more 'fun.'

And so we bring the subjective back into the discussion instead of discussing changes to the design.

It'd be nice if we could move past nebulous terms and discuss mechanics. If a DoT is a bad idea (aside from trying to use "fun", the fact that it'd slow down mana generation and the issue with server ticks are solid arguments against it), then let's come up with alternatives. I have some in mind, but I'll let someone else make suggestions for this round.

PS: You know what's not fun to me? Seeing the sword & spell hybrid of the FF series spam magic most of the time. Since RDM is currently designed around only swinging its sword once an arbitrary resource milestone is achieved during gameplay (something I hope changes in the future), anything that reduces the number of GCDs spent spamming magic means the part I enjoy will happen more often. Of course, there are some issues that need to be hammered out related to this, on top of addressing how what one finds "fun" may not be "fun" to others. See why trying to use "fun" as an argument leads nowhere?

[Gruntler]

sword & spell hybrid

Show me a game in the series where RDM's melee attacks were a real 'thing' vs just 'they can use a weapon and their attack isn't completely useless. They weren't even that great at melee in FF1!

It's clear though their inspiration is from FF5's design, where RDM was more about spamming spells fast than being a stabwizard. (Contrast with Mystic Knight, the actual 'melee and magic job')

what one finds "fun" may not be "fun" to others.

And the argument isn't 'fun', it's in unnecessary convolution. The BGoT problem isn't one of 'fun', it's of annoying convolution. Turning RDM into a melee doesn't make it a better fit for the role it has, it makes it unnecessarily convoluted (and is detrimental to its place in savage content)

When I look at proposed changes, I look at how it's going to change how I do content. I look at things like Light Rampant, or Add Phase in E8S. I look at how this would feel trying to deal with hard mechanics--and a lot of it does not assist that.

RDM doesn't need a DoT to manage, because that doesn't help its gameplay. RDM doesn't need scuffed balance guage add-on, because that doesn't help its gameplay. RDM doesn't need a 6th burst combo, because that doesn't help its gameplay.

Instead, look at what painpoints actually exist in the class that are universal (not just 'I want a gish so change RDM to cater to me only') but things everyone agrees affect the job.

1) RDM needs a defensive cooldown other than Addle. If that 'something' is 'Titan-egi is deleted and manawall is now a role action' I'd be happy with that.

2) RDM could use (but not necessarily needs) a way to get out of the situation where it's overproc'd going into melee.

3) Maybe a resource that builds off your physical ogcds, that you can spend on a physical attack, kinda like a RDM-variation of Shoha. It'd do big potency and it'd look cool.

4) A nerfed version of Lost Chaincast, that ability is an RDM classic and way too damn fun. That's your level 90 keystone right there.

5) Upgrading Verthunder and Veraero in a trait at EW launch instead of waiting for patches that end up just doing that anyways... again.

[ICountFrom0]

RDM ... manawall

Chaincast, that ability is an RDM classic ... level 90 keystone

Upgrading Verthunder and Veraero in a trait

RDM with chaincast at 90, that would be so tasty.

And yes, it would only make sense that the mage that gets up close and personal sometimes, would want a touch of defence somehow, manawall or a reskin of it sounds wonderful.

[Kalaam]

Show me a game in the series where RDM's melee attacks were a real 'thing' vs just 'they can use a weapon and their attack isn't completely useless.

FF12 if I recall ?
But clearly this isn't the inspiration.

[Beddict]

FF12 if I recall ?
But clearly this isn't the inspiration.

Eh, kinda-ish. The Red Battlemage Job Board is very heavily focused on Magic, namely Black Magic, White Magic, and a hell of a lot of Magick Lore to increase the strength of their spells. They get some other minor magic, like a bit of Green Magic (particularly Oil because it makes Ardor go boom) and Time Magic, as well as a few Battle Lore to boost physical damage, but it's intended to be a spellcaster. A popular Job combination does have it getting paired with the Shikari which makes it an incredibly strong Tank (equip Main Gauche for +50 Evasion, equip a Shield for more Evasion, cast Protect, laugh when enemies can't hit you), so it does get played in Melee if you go with that pairing. Either way, Red Battlemage by itself, ignoring Job combinations, is primarily a spellcaster.

[Kalaam]

Eh, kinda-ish. The Red Battlemage Job Board is very heavily focused on Magic, namely Black Magic, White Magic, and a hell of a lot of Magick Lore to increase the strength of their spells. They get some other minor magic, like a bit of Green Magic (particularly Oil because it makes Ardor go boom) and Time Magic, as well as a few Battle Lore to boost physical damage, but it's intended to be a spellcaster. A popular Job combination does have it getting paired with the Shikari which makes it an incredibly strong Tank (equip Main Gauche for +50 Evasion, equip a Shield for more Evasion, cast Protect, laugh when enemies can't hit you), so it does get played in Melee if you go with that pairing. Either way, Red Battlemage by itself, ignoring Job combinations, is primarily a spellcaster.

Thanks, I'll try that build next time I reinstall the game.

[Shurrikhan]

Instead, look at what painpoints actually exist in the class that are universal (not just 'I want a gish so change RDM to cater to me only') but things everyone agrees affect the job.

Here's hoping it doesn't turn into a homogenization "give me all the capacities to equal degree" checklist, as so many other jobs' "pain points" lists are wont to do...

1) RDM needs a defensive cooldown other than Addle. If that 'something' is 'Titan-egi is deleted and manawall is now a role action' I'd be happy with that.

...Hope already fading...

2) RDM could use (but not necessarily needs) a way to get out of the situation where it's overproc'd going into melee.

So a mechanic that exists... only to undo a core mechanic and remove a layer of skill ceiling? Have your final Black/White cast push you over the other's Mana count and even if it procs you won't need to override on Holy/Flare.

Granted, if we went with Rongway's Holy->Flare or Flare->Holy Lance-Mastery-but-for-RDM idea, that skill ceiling component would already be gone, in which case, sure, let's reverse the optimization such that we actually want to go into the combo with both procs up for some extra damage (and a net increase). I just don't think such would need to be a separate action, to be clear; an additional effect tied to Holy/Flare, such as via the Lance Mastery-lite trait, should be plenty.

3) Maybe a resource that builds off your physical ogcds, that you can spend on a physical attack, kinda like a RDM-variation of Shoha. It'd do big potency and it'd look cool.

I don't see how a lack of Shoha-equivalent is a "pain point". Additionally, wouldn't that draw a heavier melee aspect to the job? You've seemed rather opposed to that when anyone else suggests it. Is it just that it's enough flare with little enough unique/novel melee-related thought or uptime attached to it that this idea appeals where most anyone else's hasn't?

4) A nerfed version of Lost Chaincast, that ability is an RDM classic and way too damn fun. That's your level 90 keystone right there.

While "Chainspell" thematically could be an interesting concept if taken into a different direction, Bozja's Lost Chainspell watered down would just be... Lightspeed, minus the MP cost reduction, if it remains on a duration -- or Triplecast, if charge-based.

If we were able to build up to some haste-pumped spell-blending rapid-fire ramping-nuke goodness, on the other hand... That could be plenty unique and impel some maniacal laughter.

5) Upgrading Verthunder and Veraero in a trait at EW launch instead of waiting for patches that end up just doing that anyways... again.

...You're describing a tuning adjustment... The flip side to this is merely that we get a power trait instead of an actual mechanical traits or new skill at some step 82-90, only to then have Verthunder/Veraero nerfed when RDM turns out to be overtuned, basically returning them to their previous potencies and reducing their pre-trait potencies for fun times in synced content...

Let's leave emergency/emergent tuning to tuning patches, rather than muddying a toolkit with redundant tuning knobs.

[Gruntler]

...Hope already fading...

On the nature of non-homogeneity, 'RDM doesn't have a personal defensive cooldown' seems a strange thing to want to maintain for 'identity.' If it were handled in a different way, no big deal; that's just an example.

only to undo a core mechanic and remove a layer of skill ceiling?

There's a mechanic that lets you dump your procs going into melee without sacrificing a longcast or risking reprocing the thing you're trying to dump? Huh. That's news. Which ability is that?

Granted, if we went with Rongway's Holy->Flare or Flare->Holy Lance-Mastery-but-for-RDM idea, that skill ceiling component would already be gone

Not a fan of tossing having the back and forth thing either. The issue is that RDM doesn't really have an answer to being overproc'd so adding a tool to help isn't a bad thing. If you could stop procs, that'd be a different story.

I don't see how a lack of Shoha-equivalent is a "pain point"

I'm opposed to more weaponskills. There's no point in it. I'm not opposed to more actions that are flavored around the sword, ala contre-sixte or fleche.

would just be... Lightspeed, minus the MP cost reduction, if it remains on a duration -- or Triplecast, if charge-based.

Lightspeed is a completely different cooldown on a job that's based around proccing swiftcasts to evade a five second cast time, than it is on a job where all the non-rez cast times are a gcd or less. Triplecast on RDM would momentarily change the actual rotation during the duration. So it's more like Hypercharge than Lightspeed. Chainspell without the damage bonus component would still be a damage buff cooldown on RDM that it wouldn't be on AST.

If we were able to build up to some haste-pumped spell-blending rapid-fire ramping-nuke goodness

So Lost Chainspell?

get a power trait ... only to then have Verthunder/Veraero nerfed when RDM turns out to be overtuned

I mean, that's literally never happened for RDM, it's always been undertuned to start. If they're going to end up giving RDM a trait to buff spells just start with that. With Verthunder III in the preview it's actually likely that is the plan.

Let's leave emergency/emergent tuning to tuning patches, rather than muddying a toolkit with redundant tuning knobs.

So... Causticbite/Stormbite/Glare/Dia/Thunder IV/Malefic IV/insert traited upgrades are bad becauuuuusse...?

[Shurrikhan]

There's a mechanic that lets you dump your procs going into melee without sacrificing a longcast or risking reprocing the thing you're trying to dump? Huh. That's news. Which ability is that?

The 30-second duration attached to the proc itself. You've no reason to have both procs going in and can make it so the only proc you risk is the one that would not be wasted by Flare/Holy. It's not a comprehensive solution, obviously, as you might somehow go an entire second builder phase without ever failing to reproc the earlier phase's proc or that provided by Flare/Holy, but the chance of that is slim enough that it seems quite a stretch to call not being able to purge/spend procs more of a "pain point" than simply a natural implication of RDM's core mechanic that adds to the job's skill ceiling...

Not a fan of tossing having the back and forth thing either.

The... core mechanic of Black<->White spells...? I think I misunderstood, but if not, what would be more appealing that could fill its place? (I'm admittedly pretty neutral on it.)

So... Causticbite/Stormbite/Glare/Dia/Thunder IV/Malefic IV/insert traited upgrades are bad becauuuuusse...?

If there's literally nothing else / more interesting you could do to increase the job's PPM, go for it. But the more that goes into a raw power trait like generic skill upgrades or "Another 5% damage modifier for your Enochian, hurray!", the less budget remains for anything with even a modicum of interest or novelty attached.

I mean, that's literally never happened for RDM, it's always been undertuned to start. If they're going to end up giving RDM a trait to buff spells just start with that. With Verthunder III in the preview it's actually likely that is the plan.

A sample size of 2 hardly disproves any and all possibility that a job might end up overtuned...

And again, you're then asking that they specifically not give you anything more interesting with that slot, instead consuming that slot just to tune you higher. And, hell, if your theory holds out, it'll inevitably fail anyways, because those traits were there on the expansion's release.

Chainspell without the damage bonus component would still be a damage buff cooldown on RDM that it wouldn't be on AST.

Even Lightspeed was a potential damage buff back when Gravity was on a 3s cast-time. That some jobs get more value out of Swiftcasts than others doesn't change that what you're proposing is Swiftcast-for-X-seconds (Lightspeed) or Swiftcast-for-n-charges (Triplecast).

Yes, it'd be a decent enough ppm increase, as you'd be getting an extra Aero or two's bonus over average ppgcd per Chainspell's duration. But is that really where we want to cap the idea? No actually novelty, just slap Triple/Quadcast on a job that disproportionately benefits from instant casts?

So Lost Chainspell?

The "nuke" component of Lost Chainspell is literally just "pay more MP (a non-mechanic outside of limiting rezzes) for a (free, effectively) huge damage buff." There is no sense of "ramping up". There is no sense of "spell-blending". It's just 30 seconds of Swiftcast on a 90s CD, or effectively permanent Swiftcast (90s duration) if paired with SotW, and a damage buff.

I'm opposed to more weaponskills. There's no point in it. I'm not opposed to more actions that are flavored around the sword, ala contre-sixte or fleche.

That's fair. As the job stands, I'd agree.

Heck, though I wouldn't mind a higher portion of GCDs spent on melee actions, I see no point in having 7 separate buttons (Riposte, Zwerchhau, Redoublement, Corps, Displacement, Engagement, Moulinet) for what really needs only 3 buttons and a bit of added flexibility on Displacement.

(If melee amounted to more than just a generic spender mechanism, though, I wouldn't mind more weaponskills, so long as they added commensurate depth. That's a rather tight constraint, though.)