Red Mage: Potential adjustments

[Duelle]

Still, though, I have to wonder at the point of having a DoT on RDM.

At its most fundamental point of departure, a periodic effect is (1) a soft CD or (2) a means of banking (resource generation afforded through typical play).

You're neglecting to mention that a DoT is also supplemental damage. Someone could plausibly ask for a DoT just because they want it to contribute to RDM DPS output and there would be nothing wrong with such a request, despite it being just periodic damage and offering no additional functionality. Of course, there is the matter of how the DoT is designed (because we don't want a repeat of Fracture), but the act of making such a request is not inherently wrong.

Meanwhile, in the case of Mana generation per tick, one can readily imagine that you might put out a situational (at least, if rapidly-ticking) DoT before you'd otherwise overcap in order to allow for, say, 5 back-to-back Enchanted Moulinet casts.

Personally, I wouldn't implement a DoT that gives high mana ticks, as not only would it be awkward to use, but would end up being a slower Manafication. I'm more a fan of a "reapply every 45-60s to get 2/2 mana per server tick", as it would be a benefit over time between the supplemental damage and the additional mana gained. Depending on circumstances, this would make the difference between going straight into the melee combo or having to cast one or two more spells (imagine being at something like 76/69 with no Verfire/Verstone Ready; Jolt + 11 mana verspell won't let you do the melee combo, but if you factor in 2/2 mana generated by a DoT you applied earlier in the fight you'd generate the mana to take you to 80/80 by the time you finish casting the 11 mana verspell).

[Jirah]

I’m down for literally anything tbh, I don’t want RDM to stagnate for a 2nd expansion in a row. Better clunky and fun than samey and routine

[Shurrikhan]

You're neglecting to mention that a DoT is also supplemental damage.

It's no more supplemental than literally other form of damage. And that's mentioned right in the post you've quoted, as a soft CD access to an above-average ppgcd skill.

(because we don't want a repeat of Fracture)

Hell, if it did even half the things for RDM that Fracture did for Monk (adding soft-CD access to a non-positional skill AND a rotational +1 mod, atop a ppgcd bonus, per ~18 seconds), I think we'd be happy. But it's a matter of context. If it does nothing more than the ppgcd bonus, it merely makes RDM feel slower to ramp up.

but if you factor in 2/2 mana generated by a DoT you applied earlier in the fight you'd generate the mana to take you to 80/80 by the time you finish casting the 11 mana verspell.

Again, though, is that fun?

If it is, even just for a narrow portion of RDM players, then we've got something to build on. If not, especially given the annoyance or perceived slowness it'd cause for others, we don't.

[hynaku]

One change I wish they do is make vercure a level 50 skill. Because below level 54 rdm has no self healing abilities.

[Grimoire-M]

The exact style of DoT I would want on Red Mage is one that allows it to use mana of one type now to gain more mana over time, without interrupting your regular dualcast sequences, giving you a reason to use it over Reprise. My concern with the idea is whether it should rely on two mechanics we don’t have use for currently: intentionally unbalancing your mana, and converting mana of one type into another. The unbalanced state just acts as a punishment mechanic at the moment, but granting access to an ability to immediately escape that state does give it a use case, and would also allow us to apply a soft cooldown to the use of these DoTs to limit their uptime. The ballpark numbers I’d want for such a DoT are spend 15 Black or White Mana, in exchange for 5 Mana + Damage/Tick over 18s. If it converts it from one type into the other would have to be double that to account for the penalty of using it. I’m okay with these replacing Jolt II in their respective states, as you’re unlikely to actually trigger the effect off of a Verstone/Fire proc.

The downside is it doesn’t really solve the intended problem of making it easier to delay the melee combo without adjustments there, which again suggests that altering the costs and mana generation is ultimately necessary going forward. If you can’t do much under those constraints, then the constraints need to change.

[Stormcaster]

Can we not tie resource to DoTs please? Especially when said resource is also actively being gained by other sources. The headache to this is that it adds another thing you have to keep track of. Like:
- Will a tick happen while I was going melee?
- Will a tick happen as I was about to use Manafication? If you're at 48/49 and you want to Manafication NOW, the DoT would overcap your mana when you Manafication.

DoTs are obscure and tying it to resource is a headache. That's why other jobs' DoTs are just there for damage. BRD's Soul Gauge is like the only kind of resource similar to this and it's only used for one GCD. Their other Repertoire stuffs have their own specific uses and you don't really have to "calculate" the 80/80.

What I would rather want is a way to easily dump procs when you can't delay your combo too much (E9S PvP phase, or if you have to bait Black Smokers in E3S etc. Spamming EReprise is sad) or like a way to save your good proc luck for when you really need them.

[WildTamarind]

A seperate two hit melee combo that applies a dot. Thats what i want.

[WildTamarind]

A seperate two hit melee combo that applies a dot. Thats what i want.

[NobleWinter]

I love RDM currently as a super casual player but if I could choose the new abilities for Endwalker it would look something like:

Level 82 Moulinet Mastery (Trait)

Each successive use of Enchanted Moulinet will increase the potency with a new Elemental animation. Still one button, but more power and varied elemental fun.

Level 84 Balanced Burst (Ability) 90 Second Recast

Basically a combination of Medica and Ley Lines, this ability would require 50 Black and 50 White Mana to activate. It would heal all party members within a 15 yalm range with a potency of 250. A permanent ground effect would also be created beneath the caster that gives the effect of "Harmony" to the RDM for 30 seconds boosting attack power. The "Harmony" effect can be refreshed by reentering the ground effect area. Ideally this would only be used once for the personal attack buff but the raid wide heal could be used for an emergency too albeit at a heavy dps cost.

(I imagine we would build both our guages to 90 minimum, use Balanced Burst for the buff to drop our guages to 40, and then Manfication to hit 80 for the melee combo. I have no clue how that affects high end raiders tho.)

Level 87 Seek Sanctuary (Ability) 30 Second Recast

Teleport up to 35 yalms to the Balanced Burst Ground Effect. With proper placement it gives the RDM even more options to maintain uptime.

Level 90 Perfect Harmony (Ability) 120 Second Recast

While standing in the Balanced Burst Ground Effect the RDM will be able to revitalize their spirit causing both Black and White Mana to steadily increase. Ability is canceled upon movement or taking a new action.

Basically the same gameplay but shiny new toys in the form of more utility, mobility, and gauge building in down time.

[Duelle]

Hell, if it did even half the things for RDM that Fracture did for Monk (adding soft-CD access to a non-positional skill AND a rotational +1 mod, atop a ppgcd bonus, per ~18 seconds), I think we'd be happy. But it's a matter of context. If it does nothing more than the ppgcd bonus, it merely makes RDM feel slower to ramp up.

Fracture may have been a boon for MNK, but was a waste of a GCD for the class that learned it (MRD/WAR), which is what I was getting at.

Again, though, is that fun?

So this is where you lose me. Fun is a subjective thing, and I consider it a cowardly way to try to justify a design (hence why I've taken umbrage with WoW's devs when they made changes to classes under the guise of "fun", as said changes often turn out to be anything but). Putting something together and expecting people to find it fun is like a professional wrestler that comes up with a gimmick and expects it to get over with the crowd. Neither is a sure thing, and to count on it is basically counting your chickens before they hatch.

The exact style of DoT I would want on Red Mage is one that allows it to use mana of one type now to gain more mana over time, without interrupting your regular dualcast sequences, giving you a reason to use it over Reprise. My concern with the idea is whether it should rely on two mechanics we don’t have use for currently: intentionally unbalancing your mana, and converting mana of one type into another. The unbalanced state just acts as a punishment mechanic at the moment, but granting access to an ability to immediately escape that state does give it a use case, and would also allow us to apply a soft cooldown to the use of these DoTs to limit their uptime.

Well, the issues to address are that a) you're currently not going to imbalance unless it's on purpose, b) RDM is already built with not having perfect parity between mana bars in mind because of how Verflare and Verholy are designed, c) messing with mana accumulated has the risk of delaying the spender phase which means lower DPS potential. That aside, it being an alternative to Jolt makes sense, though it might require some adjustments because of the rules RDM is designed around.

- Will a tick happen as I was about to use Manafication? If you're at 48/49 and you want to Manafication NOW, the DoT would overcap your mana when you Manafication.

Wouldn't the existence of this hypothetical DoT change how people approach Manafication? I mean in that context, instead of waiting to hit 47-49 mana, there's a chance players would adjust to lower numbers like 43-45 to account for the passively generated mana. At least that what I think would happen.