Pronouns???

[Wilford111]

Alright. Can you explain, without being vague this time, why it is a bad idea to allow for a *simple toggle* between whether or not the *story* refers to you with male dialogue or female dialogue.

No changing the subject, no talking about political issues (because this really isn’t political.) Just, in plain speak: why do you think it is a bad idea to allow for a toggle between male or female dialogue options?

I already answered that, both in long form and in short form. Yes it is political, see my previous posts.

[Theodric]

As a gay guy, I dislike it when people try to present not supporting an idea such as this as being equal to 'bigotry'. For starters, this sort of thing appears to be largely confined to Twitter and similar websites rather than in real life. I've yet to actually encounter anyone face to face in the real world who requests the use of different pronouns. Perhaps it is more common over in America, though I'm inclined to suggest that it isn't the case over here in Scotland based on my own experiences.

Which leads me to my next point. The world consists of a great many different countries and cultures. Within each, there's a great many different people from all sorts of different backgrounds. It simply isn't viable to appease single group in existence - and even if an attempt were to be made, I'd vastly prefer the larger groups to be the focus. As I see it, after a certain point it becomes a bit too easy to lose oneself in the constant need to have 'representation' everywhere, all the time.

Some of my favourite games in existence involve characters that are straight. The Witcher 3 is but one example. Geralt is canonically straight and only ever has the option to pursue women. That doesn't bother me in the slightest - nor does it in games that allow me to design a character to my own tastes but disallow the option to pursue a gay relationship with an NPC. Would I like to see options to account for my personal tastes? Certainly - but I'd rather the developers do it because they want to and in a tasteful manner rather than because they feel obligated to do it due to pressure.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't think people need to feel obligated to include such things in a game and they shouldn't be guilt tripped into believing that they absolutely have to. That goes for the creators but also other consumers who should not be attacked just because they have a difference in opinion and priorities.

It unsettles me when people try to associate such stances with actual hate and bigotry. For various reasons but first and foremost because it makes light of actual bigotry in my opinion.

[Endariel]

But why, there are only 2 genders and thus 2 pronouns
drops the mic

[Jijifli]

Well I feel I'll get taken the wrong way, but...

They already do. It's called picking your race's gender. If you wanna be refereed to as a male, pick a male, and if you wanna as a female, pick a female.

The only real argued missing one is a 'they', but that isn't likely to happen due to 10+ years of dialog.

[Andy_T93]

This was a rollercoaster of a thread, here is the thing, is this a big deal for the game? not really, would it be a good use of dev time and resources? probably not, will it happen? certainly not, Do I think it should happen? not bothered at all

HOWEVER to actively suggest and promote the idea that It shouldn't happen is pretty awful, regardless of whether it will happen or not there is not denying that its inclusion would have a positive impact for people who identify with different pronouns and would have zero negative impact on anyone, so to argue against it is spiteful at best and bigoted at worst

[Andy_T93]

Look, at the end of the day, this is just another part of the political culture war. You might say that "people's identities aren't political! They're human rights!" Yeah I've heard that one before. See above for the rebuttal to that statement.

Would this feature ruin the game for me? Absolutely not. But it is a small step in making this game more enjoyable for a certain group of people, and less enjoyable for another. I'm on the latter side, and I will do what I can to make this game more enjoyable. Not just for me, but for the majority.

I genuinely do not know where to start with this. On one hand I suppose at least you offered an explanation and believe what you are saying on the other hand the fact that you seem to think what you are saying is reasonable is seriously worrying. Feels like you are completely incapable of empathy for others.

You are looking at this from the view point of people either being offended/or not offended and yes I agree entirely that ultimately people are in control of what they personally find offensive and certainly it would be insane to be offended by a computer programme as there is obviously no intention or malice from it.

However instead of viewing it as just being and offensive/inoffensive thing. Think of the good it could do instead from an inclusivity point of view. Imagine you are a kid 13/14 years old struggling with your gender identity, you feel like no-one understands, you don't have anyone to talk to about it and you log into a game and the game asks you how you would like to be addressed. Suddenly that kid doesn't feel quite so alone, doesn't feel quite so wrong to feel the way that they do and that can only be a good thing I hope you at least agree with that.

Throughout our history it is the media around us with helps to normalise things. 65 years ago you wouldn't see black and white people on TV together but media such as TV, films and music normalised it. 10/15 years ago you would never see a gay character in a video game but again it has become much more normalised. All media has a responsibility to push for inclusion and video games are no exception of this.

To touch on a few of your final points and to make something clear, Gender Identity is NOT political just because it is discussed in political circles. Politics is an external societal construct the way someone feels about their gender is internal, it can't be changed anymore than a black person can change their skin colour or a gay person can change their sexual orientation.

Lastly you mentioned that this change would be a small step in making the game less enjoyable for others. Could you maybe explain how and why you feel this would have a negative impact on anyone?

Thanks

[Enjuden]

It's all a game. It's basically the same game people played back when same-sex unions weren't yet permitted for eternal bond.

"I treat everyone with respect," but they refuse to grant some very basic manners and human dignities that they take for granted themselves.

"I'm not a bigot," but they can't resist voicing how disgusted they are that a marginalized group being validated will ruin the game. Even though it won't impact them at all.

"Stop bringing politics and outside issues into Eorzea," when they reject another player's personal identity because it offends their delicate political and religious sensibilities.



Are you for real!? You literally just said it would ruin the game. We have the quote.

Hello. Twitter called. They're missing you.

See first reply for what I think. Regardless, all who follow suggestions like yours have failed miserably. Would be a bad idea to start now. Marketing for people like that (aka people who complain for the sake of complaining and who never buy or are happy with anything) is a foolish thing to do for any company.

[TeraRamis]

It unsettles me when people try to associate such stances with actual hate and bigotry. For various reasons but first and foremost because it makes light of actual bigotry in my opinion.

Same.

In a larger sense, I just don't understand why people need to have a representative of their 'camp' present at all times now in order to feel vindicated or acknowledged as a person. It's like we've crossed some kind of weird Rubicon where we (or a large percentage of us) seemingly can no longer just cheer for a person unless that individual happens to incorporate a set of select attributes that we can identify with. In a similar vein, my mother reviews books for a major publishing oversight firm - about a year ago, they informed all their employees that unless they were gay, they could no longer write reviews about books staring gay characters; same for trans; same for black, Asian, etc. The implication was clear: you cannot bond-with or fairly evaluate content regarding a minority unless you are a part of that group yourself; the notion of a 'shared human experience'...? Dead to this company.

I'm just tired of the culture wars, on all sides. People need to give it a freaking break and stop acting like they're being constantly persecuted. When the public burnings return, we'll be sure to notify you that panic is once again appropriate. Until then, just mind your own freaking lives.

[Andy_T93]

Same.

In a larger sense, I just don't understand why people need to have a representative of their 'camp' present at all times now in order to feel vindicated or acknowledged as a person.

This right here is the whole point you don't understand and thats fine because how could you, the world is made for you and no one wants to take that away from you. But try to think for a moment what it must feel like for someone who it wasn't made for.

Try to imagine for a second what it must be like to sit at home and watch complete strangers 1000's of miles away actual discussing and voting on whether or not THEY think that YOU deserve to get married. That THEY are going decide which bathroom YOU can use at a restaurant.

You say you don't understand but please realise how lucky you actually are that you don't have to understand.

Im a CIS male I have never imagined myself to be anything other than that my pronouns are he/him as anyone would expect from me. But on my work email signature I include my pronouns anyway not because they are needed but because the more people who do it the more people who maybe don't have the expected pronoun might also feel comfortable doing the same.

You talk about shared human experience but then also expect trans people to basically keep their experience to themselves. AS CIS people we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard than that to pave the way for people to feel more accepted

[nebby00]

Oh dear, this thread is just chaos. Can we do one thing and just not continue to argue with each other over this? The argument will continue to go around in circles and by all means we'll get nowhere with this since the same exact points will be brought up on both sides, and from the months lurking on the forums before making my own account, seeing this thread constantly being revived out of the blue with the same points being brought up and rebutted time and time again is a bit annoying. Please, just agree to disagree and move on. No need for both sides to accuse the other of either being "bigoted" or "too sensitive", since this is just wasted energy arguing over this topic in particular.

No one is going to completely agree with your point, and that's fine. That's just life, people have different ways of thinking and if you don't agree then just move on with your life. Stop pointing accusations at other people, and cut out the whole "if they're not with us, they're against us." It's things like this that cause so much issues in the first place when there rightly should not be a big issue to begin with.