Petition: Remove EX Trials from Mentor Roulette

[Vahlnir]

Telling sprouts to use PF and/or find a community catered to their needs is mentoring. That's how harder or unpopular content is done in NA and EU.
Mentors are here to help and teach how they see fit, not bend over backwards to carry the chainpulling GLD or the curebot who never opens the chat in Ramuh EX.

Considering that the PF is indeed used to recruit for Extremes the most at least on the NA side of things (no idea what it's like elsewhere)...yeah, it is wonderful advice. Whatever the conditions (synced, unsynced, min item level, etc) the groups will usually fill if one is patient enough. Some things will be slower to fill than others, but it beats wasting their time and the time of 7 other people by trying to queue for these things. In the time it takes to queue up, given the wait time could be at LEAST an hour...they could have partially or completely filled their PF group and have been inside learning already.

[Baxcel]

Considering that the PF is indeed used to recruit for Extremes the most at least on the NA side of things (no idea what it's like elsewhere)...yeah, it is wonderful advice. Whatever the conditions (synced, unsynced, min item level, etc) the groups will usually fill if one is patient enough. Some things will be slower to fill than others, but it beats wasting their time and the time of 7 other people by trying to queue for these things. In the time it takes to queue up, given the wait time could be at LEAST an hour...they could have partially or completely filled their PF group and have been inside learning already.

I typically tend to agree with most posts you have on here but have to disagree this time..

Generally when a queue pops for a synced EX from Duty finder it's a majority of the time 6-7 players who have queued for it directly with 1-2 mentors being tossed into thr fight from mentor roulette.. so it would actually be the mentor wasting the time of the other players who waited in queue for the fight to start by leaving, telling them to do PF..

Also why should those players leave an instance that they just got into with who knows how long they already sat in queue for.. only to be told to leave the fight and wait for a PF that most likely won't actually fill up.. idk about your server but on mine anything that's not a unsycned mount farm or a ShB ex fight never get players to join..

An FC member of mine as example sat for 3hrs in PF trying to do Coils of bahamut synced no one ever joined the group.. he eventually gave up since its not in any roulette..

[Vahlnir]

I typically tend to agree with most posts you have on here but have to disagree this time..

Generally when a queue pops for a synced EX from Duty finder it's a majority of the time 6-7 players who have queued for it directly with 1-2 mentors being tossed into thr fight from mentor roulette.. so it would actually be the mentor wasting the time of the other players who waited in queue for the fight to start by leaving, telling them to do PF..

Also why should those players leave an instance that they just got into with who knows how long they already sat in queue for.. only to be told to leave the fight and wait for a PF that most likely won't actually fill up.. idk about your server but on mine anything that's not a unsycned mount farm or a ShB ex fight never get players to join..

An FC member of mine as example sat for 3hrs in PF trying to do Coils of bahamut synced no one ever joined the group.. he eventually gave up since its not in any roulette..

To be fair, I never agreed with people leaving here, though I understand why people do. The advice in general is solid regardless and it doesn't need to be given by someone bowing out, but could be used for future reference. The PF is a wonderful tool. Time of day is also very important when using the PF. I find it hard to believe that your FC mate sat for so long and had no one join unless it is was during your server's off time, which is basically early morning/very late night hours. Running instances synced is all the rage lately.

[Baxcel]

Except we're not teaching them mechanics.
We're trying to go against the conditioning they've received from day 1 since starting the game that it doesn't matter what they do as long as they're pressing buttons while at the same time trying to get them to do mechanics.
This is what we're dealing with: If not worse

With that said Is there really such a need for such vitriol against mentors? Are you even a mentor? Some people just aren't ready for extreme and it has nothing to do with mentors.
I joined a 40 minutes in progress Leviathan EX just yesterday and we ran out the clock.
Not even 20% echo can help those people.
Sure you can clear most of them save Ramuh, The Great Hunt Ex(sometimes), and Sephirot but why are people so upset that some people just A. Aren't worth helping, B. Don't want help, or C. Aren't ready for the help being offered?

These people have never been challenged at all leading up the time they put themselves into the queue, they have next to no raid awareness, and don't even understand how to dps an add that appears infront of them unless specifically told and reminded to do so. If left to their own devices they would hit Ifrit while he was invincible until they wiped multiple times.

You can't help people who don't want to be helped, it goes both ways.

Going ignore the clip as it's been discussed to death already and is not indictictive of actual spouts.. but people who make drama to get views..

Yes there is a need to call out bad mentors.. if your only there for the mount and the burger King crown then your not ment to be a mentor.. if you don't have the time to teach the players to fail an instance then you shouldn't be a mentor.. mentor are people too.. they can fail an fight but the very least they should do is stay and try to clear with the people who queued for the duty..

You obviously didn't read the entire thread I have combat mentored but currently don't have the comends..

Also see my above comment about how a mentor leaving a duty is actually hurting the 6-7 other players who chose to be there.. because 99% of the time you only get 1 or 2 mentors to help fill the fight

[Nethereal]

Going ignore the clip as it's been discussed to death already and is not indictictive of actual spouts.. but people who make drama to get views..

Yes there is a need to call out bad mentors.. if your only there for the mount and the burger King crown then your not ment to be a mentor.. if you don't have the time to teach the players to fail an instance then you shouldn't be a mentor.. mentor are people too.. they can fail an fight but the very least they should do is stay and try to clear with the people who queued for the duty..

You obviously didn't read the entire thread I have combat mentored but currently don't have the comends..

Also see my above comment about how a mentor leaving a duty is actually hurting the 6-7 other players who chose to be there.. because 99% of the time you only get 1 or 2 mentors to help fill the fight

The clip is indicative of how inexperienced players simply have no awareness outside of their hotbar which is relevant to all discussion in relation to teaching people in this game.
How are people supposed to teach anyone anything when you can't even see what's in front of you?

Where did I say mentors leaving was a good thing? Where did I say you shouldn't call out bad mentors?
I just said there's no need to blanketly shame mentors who tell people to use PF. Mentors who tell people to use PF aren't bad mentors.
Mentors should stay for as long as realistically possible, at their own discretion. If they choose to leave their punishment is leaver's queue and it ends there.
If you think that punishment is too light then that's something to talk about on its own.

On the topic of who is deserving of mentor it would be right to bring up mentor is optional content as are all extremes.
If you are either unwilling or unable to communicate with your party with anything other than emotes then you should not be in any content above normal, especially when you're new.

Learning is a two way street and if you're unwilling to even meet us half way then don't be surprised when people leave.
This isn't school, we're not being paid to teach you, we're being compensated for completing the run and if you're unwilling to learn then we're not being compensated at all and if I'm not being compensated why should I teach someone who doesn't want to learn?
They can learn to fail on their own time, my being there won't change anything.
More often than not sprouts willing to learn will leave on their own accord from the soul crushing embarrassment of dying to every single mechanic back to back. It's the chainpullers that stay.

[Eien713]

This topic has been discussed to death and I've stated my position on this matter over and over, so this time, I just have a question for those who say mentors are required to teach people extreme fights and if you're not willing, then you're not worthy of being a mentor: Where did this consensus come from? Was it clearly stated anywhere that this was part of a mentor's job? And if you give me the stale "mentors are expected to help/support" argument, I'd counter it by saying define "help/support" in a universal way. We don't all view things the same way, so isn't it unfair of people to consider their view the only one in existence and the only one that is correct/valid?

I'm a mentor (though I hide my crown due to the bad rep), and I really enjoy/like helping other people (new or not) by answering questions, helping with mount farms, or clearing an instance where I don't spend my time banging my head against a wall. I don't like having to do ex fights in DF because they're too tedious, especially when people don't read chat or when there are just too many things to explain and even then the explanation via text won't be that clear. I'd be more than happy, however, to do those instances if people came prepared and we worked together toward a clear. Does this mean I'm not worthy of being a mentor despite how much I've helped people during my mentoring career? I think saying such a statement is just too unfair and narrow-minded. And I bet most people who say such a thing have never been a mentor and tried those fights in DF. It's simply torture most of the time.

[dezzmont]

We can discuss what mentors should or shouldn't do till we are blue in the face. I personally am of the opinion that every roulette is a bribe for you to do content to help new players clear it, and you should be willing to help carry a team that lags behind you in order to earn your bonus XP and tomestones. So through that lens, tough cookies to Mentors.

But that is the wrong way to look at it, its too abstract and philosophical and deliberately removes the reality of the situation and the effects it causes. Lets look at it from another angle:

Is having a mentor enter in on an extremes actually an efficient way to get mentorship for clearing that content? Will it lead to a better, smoother experience for that new player?

I would say almost certainly not. There is value in having mentors who know the fight and want to teach it in it, but the reality is that extreme content is set up in a way that mentorship probably requires a pre-existing relationship between the mentor and group (AKA PF), and a mentor who actually knows extremes and how to teach them and is ready for one.

Regardless of if you feel mentors SHOULD be able to teach extremes in a DF context, lets be super blunt: They demonstrably can't do it, and it makes the game worse for the people receiving mentorship in this context to get mentors not ready for the content, and probably actually does a lot of 'invisible harm' to the community because it causes players to not want to do extremes in the future if they have a terrible experience with one in PF.

By all means, tie in mentor rewards with some sort of 'Extreme Mentorship' roulette (maybe make a new Astrope variant), or hell add in a 'request mentor' feature for PF that allows a mentor to hop in and get mentor rewards for PF based synced clears with strangers, which allows mentors to both establish a pre-existing relationship with a group that WANTS mentorship and lets them understand what content they are assisting with.

But removing extremes from mentor roulette is such an obvious 'everybody wins' scenario because it isn't actually serving anyone at the current moment. Demanding mentors to be forced into extremes when it so obviously isn't helping anyone (unlike say... players getting 'forced into' hard leveling duties like AV or whatever, which DOES help the people they join in most cases) isn't actually noble, its almost sadistic: you just want people to suffer because you don't think a small fraction of that party doesn't 'deserve' something, rather than because it actually makes the game better or more engaging.

[SturmChurro]

I'm sure there are a lot of mentors who would love EX removed, as then they get a better chance at a quick guildhest or whatever for their mount, and don't 'need' to take a leaver penalty, or ask to get kicked when they get extremes.

[Eien713]

I'm sure there are a lot of mentors who would love EX removed, as then they get a better chance at a quick guildhest or whatever for their mount, and don't 'need' to take a leaver penalty, or ask to get kicked when they get extremes.

I'm sorry but what's so wrong with this? I never understood the stance of "mentors must suffer to get the mount." Mentors in different DF content are helpful to have even if the instance isn't an extreme fight. They fill in the queues, do content at a decent level (hopefully), can give advice, and can answer questions or explain simple mechanics when people get stuck on them. Why is it that all this doesn't seem to have any value to people?

[SturmChurro]

I'm sorry but what's so wrong with this? I never understood the stance of "mentors must suffer to get the mount." Mentors in different DF content are helpful to have even if the instance isn't an extreme fight. They fill in the queues, do content at a decent level (hopefully), can give advice, and can answer questions or explain simple mechanics when people get stuck on them. Why is it that all this doesn't seem to have any value to people?

The core problem is that many "mentors" don't actually care about mentoring, and would rather have quick and easy content on their 'journey' to the mount. The less actual mentoring the better. The mount should NOT be a reward, nor should there be a crown, AT THE VERY LEAST. Really the mentor system should just be removed altogether, but I digress.

Getting an Extreme in the "mentor" roulette should be about helping players like any other prog run, a "mentor" may not necessarily get their clear towards their mount, but at least they were there to help aid players - which should be expected as Extremes are a part of the mentor roulette. It shouldn't be seen as a hindrance, but part of what they signed up for. Players have to check a box when becoming a mentor that states what being a mentor should be, if a player cannot be expected to do that, perhaps they shouldn't be or become a mentor.