Dps job design issues due to lack of utility.

[ReynTime]

Personally, I feel like the largest issue we'd face in asking for more interesting dungeons isn't the "community" (whose opinions, as mostly sometimes reasonable sentient beings, change as the circumstances or object of their opinions do), but the flat roulette rewards. So long as the roulette rewards do not scale with the content in question, or do not share a certain bonus cap (liekly with some day-to-day roll-over) with other roulettes, you always want to roll the quickest dungeon to make their bonus that much more efficient. If a dungeon A takes 20 minutes for 40 tomes, dungeon B takes 30 minutes for 60 tomes, and C 40 for 80, that just allows for variety and choice. But seeing as most will only run the one roulette-bonused dungeon per day, we instead have 20 minutes for 90, 30 for 110, or 40 for 130, and voila, there's a clear most efficient choice. And thus, to those who want to make the most of their time, there is no choice, and all designs but A become superfluous.

In practice, though, there are of course further complicators. For instance, mere dungeon length would not give sufficient variety. We'd also want to allow for differences in difficulty, in which case those times will vary.

Let's say we have Players 1, 2, and 3, at differing skill levels.

For a party all of whom are, on average, at the skill level of Player 1, with no outliers so great as to solo-carry, A takes 30 minutes, B takes 50, and C takes 85+, if even possible. For that player, if rewards remained as above, A is faintly more efficient than B, and C would be something of a non-option, at least on a daily basis.

For a party all of whom are, on average, at the skill level of Player 2, A takes 20 minutes, B 30, and C 40. Thus, they have every option.
[Cut due character limit]

I like these ideas but I also still think they had a good concept with bonus dungeon clear chests, if it wasn't for the stupid speedrun chest that should have never existed. And that could have been adapted to prevent the dungeon design issue that happened after ARR.
Have the chests compensating the extra time required to fully explore a dungeon and objectives, throw in extra tomestone rewards for each bonus chest. Yes the veterans will still want to rush through those objectives, but that's significantly better than ignoring them altogether and favoring the hallway simulator design. That would also make the duty objective listing a lot less pointless.

[ItMe]

You were encouraged to level multiple jobs since 1.0, [...] or swapping jobs mid-dungeon to be an intended mechanic,

That sounds really weird. I haven't heard about this.
Can you tell us more about this?

[Hanayumi]

Pre echo/nerf coil raid required a decent amount of utility involved, mostly cc, had to stun/silence certain boss/add moves, some adds had to be rooted, slowed, or slept else they 1 shot targets. But they phased a majority of cc out in cause it was causing certain job to be straight up required. That being said... role action kinda remedied this, look at range role actions, slow, root, silence, and defensive cd, walk speed, toss some other utility to other roles and bring back some heavy cc mechanics, id be happy with that.

[DPZ2]

bring back some heavy cc mechanics, id be happy with that.

CC goes away as soon as the mobs that have been CC'd are hit for damage. Kinda makes CC useless for the "Let's run through and AoE everything quick" crowd.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

That sounds really weird. I haven't heard about this.
Can you tell us more about this?

It was rather annoying, especially if you took a break from the game (it was baaad) and came back towards the end.

Cutters cry for instance, people required you to have blm and mnk leveled, to make certain fights easier.

[ItMe]

It was rather annoying, especially if you took a break from the game (it was baaad) and came back towards the end.

Cutters cry for instance, people required you to have blm and mnk leveled, to make certain fights easier.

I didn't even realize there was a time you could swap jobs mid duty.
This sounds like a nightmare. Like, having the community "require" certain jobs for certain bosses can be bad enough, but for certain stretches of a duty?
Was the duty really that much more difficult without them? Or what?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

I didn't even realize there was a time you could swap jobs mid duty.
This sounds like a nightmare. Like, having the community "require" certain jobs for certain bosses can be bad enough, but for certain stretches of a duty?
Was the duty really that much more difficult without them? Or what?

Couldn't tell you, I never got invited along, I only had brd and DRG to 50 back then.

[Shurrikhan]

I like these ideas but I also still think they had a good concept with bonus dungeon clear chests, if it wasn't for the stupid speedrun chest that should have never existed. And that could have been adapted to prevent the dungeon design issue that happened after ARR.

The only bonus dungeon clear chests, unless you mean the 1-2 side-rooms per dungeon for some random materials, were those speedrun chests, though? I'd agree that the speedrun chests were a horrible concept, but I can't see how the sideroom chests were much better; they just necessitated more trash (Darkhold, etc.) or some sort of esoteric knowledge (Qarn NM).

I'd rather have dungeons actually designed not to be a mere hallway simulator, rather than a hallway with some equally uninteresting sidepaths (that we will likely have to backtrack from).

[DPZ2]

I didn't even realize there was a time you could swap jobs mid duty.
This sounds like a nightmare. Like, having the community "require" certain jobs for certain bosses can be bad enough, but for certain stretches of a duty?
Was the duty really that much more difficult without them? Or what?

I played through ARR when it was still ARR, and this ability to swap jobs mid-duty does not appear to have been a thing in 2014. I don't believe it was ever a thing. It might have been something in 1.0 I suppose.

Same thing with the "speedrun bonus chests" for dungeon instances. Not a clue where that came from, unless it was also a 1.0 thing.

[Shurrikhan]

I played through ARR when it was still ARR, and this ability to swap jobs mid-duty does not appear to have been a thing in 2014. I don't believe it was ever a thing. It might have been something in 1.0 I suppose.

Don't really need "suppose" when the info is... just a few posts above you, I would think?

1.0... encouraged you to level multiple jobs... by having... swapping jobs mid-dungeon be an intended mechanic.

[1.x] Cutters cry for instance, people required you to have blm and mnk leveled, to make certain fights easier.

:: Note that Cutter's Cry was an endgame instance at the time.

And yes, bonus chests for having, say, A, B, or C (ascending order) minutes left on the timer were also a 1.x thing.

I didn't even realize there was a time you could swap jobs mid duty.
This sounds like a nightmare. Like, having the community "require" certain jobs for certain bosses can be bad enough, but for certain stretches of a duty?
Was the duty really that much more difficult without them? Or what?

Ehh, it was an advantage, but hardly a make/break kind of thing. I had a few applicable jobs leveled, and another friend both MNK and BLM, and we were never asked to swap between them for CC runs.