DPS jobs lacking utility?

[Lyth]

Players use utility if it's expected of them. If your PLD and BRD have to take turns silencing High Voltage and your BRD misses the silence, then everyone knows who is responsible. So you get it right. If you give everyone a silence, then it falls to the lower end of the dps spectrum (tanks and healers) to sort it out so that everyone else can tunnel on the boss. If missing the silence doesn't have consequences, then nobody will do it.

[AnotherPerson]

You realize a fight that does makes no use of utilities is the very same tank, spank, and DDR?


Because in most cases it has too little effect to even reduce healing requirements by a single GCD... If it's going to make literally no difference at present, but it could in the future, why would you put it on cooldown?

Which still doesn't change the question, what would be considered "good utility"?
Ultimately, all the non-essential utility in FFXIV is mainly for non-optimal situations or used for trash mobs and everyone calls those bad utility because they're never always needed or even used properly. Then what is considered good utility?

Players use utility if it's expected of them. If your PLD and BRD have to take turns silencing High Voltage and your BRD misses the silence, then everyone knows who is responsible. So you get it right. If you give everyone a silence, then it falls to the lower end of the dps spectrum (tanks and healers) to sort it out so that everyone else can tunnel on the boss. If missing the silence doesn't have consequences, then nobody will do it.

Actually, reverse the order of responsibility - most players don't even care about interrupts unless it's high end content where interrupting is a necessary mechanic to survive. For normal content, there's a lot of situations where people just expect the healers to heal through the failed interrupt mechanic first, and if it's a good healer, then they'll keep you alive through the failed interrupt. If not, then the blame goes on why the healer failed, before the blame goes to tanks and ranged DPS for missing the silence/stun (Dohn Mheg is a notable one where a lot of tanks don't even realize they can prevent the damage up buff on the adds, which ends up putting more pressure on the healer). Players use utility if they are necessary (aka if they wiped) since most situations aren't lethal enough to cause a wipe if you didn't use that utility.

[Lucyfurr1988]

I havent played all dps jobs yet, only Sam, Ninja, Black mage, red mage but I am feeling DPS jobs dont get much utility or non dps related cds in general to the point it feels like you are only pressing dps buttons and rarely ever anything else.

Coming from WoW where for example the hunter has aoe root, threat redirection, 6s immunity, 20% DR for 6s, personal heal cd, single target slow, aoe trap slow, single target 60s cc, speed boost cd, dispell and stealth detect flare

utility is used differently in this game mostly in the form of buffs and debuffs. trick attack on ninja for instance is a debuff on the boss that makes it take more damage, embolden on redmage is a party wide buff that increases damage (physical for party members that imo should be on all. there are also things like feint and addle which work on a reducing damage output. honestly black mage and samurai are very selfish dps jobs they dont provide ultility but literally hit like a truck.

melee dps can reduce physical damage output, dragoon had buffs to the whole party and a buff to oner other member, ninja has trick attack which when used right increases everyones burst damage windows as they all fall inside trick attack windows, monk has brotherhood and massive personal mitigation. and all melee players have a stun.

physical ranged all have their own 10% party wide damage mitigation, heavy (not really useful in most content) and an interrupt.
bard has its songs that are buffs and a direct hit +20% iirc it can also up the amount of healing taken by 1 party member, an esuna effect.
dancer has a 5% damage up buff on themselves and one other player at all times a 5% party wide damage up buff on a 2 minute cooldown, a crit and direct hit +20% on itself and one other player every 2 minutes, a stackable heal that when stacked equals the same potency as assize (a whm heal) and a healing up buff that it can snapshot onto the paties healers.

magical ranged all have a magical damage output debuff for the boss.
redmage has embolden and summoner has devotion which is a damage up buff on a 3 minute cooldown.

whm has a raidwide mitigation of 10% while upping it healing potency.

scholar has the mitigation in its dome and also has a debuff on the boss that makes it more likely to take critical damage on a 2 minute cooldown.

astrologian can snapshot its done for mitigation, also has cards which are damage up on a 30s cooldown and sleeve draw which is another card on a 3 minute cooldown and divination which is a raidwide damage up buff for upto 6% (dependent on seals and asts making sure to get the highest at its lowest its a 4% buff) on a 2 minute cooldown.

all tanks have party wide mitigation.

[Lucyfurr1988]

Personal heals: all DDs except BLM and SMN have at least one self heal. Melee DDs each have at least two.
.

technically demi phoenix has a regen attached to it

[Lucyfurr1988]

Doesn't make it any less bull. If you situate something poorly (such that your implementation is scarcely worth using) and then use players' lack of interest in that implementation as indication that they have no interest in the concept, that's negligent at best. More likely: disingenuous.

"Would you like to buy this mount for 300 primal totems?"
"No?"
"Well I guess no one wants the ability to buy mounts with totems. Let's get rid of that."

think sleeve draw - used to pull 3 cards but loads of players moaned that they were finding it stressful to do so, couldnt always get a 3 card divination and mp was too hard to maintain. sleeve draw gets a massive nerf and they attach mp regeneration to it.

the problem isnt negligence at all the problem is they pay too much attention to the people unwilling to learn to play their jobs right

[Lucyfurr1988]

I mean you could make the same argument for WoW, if half the dps players never use their dispel abilities even though it can benefit them then should they remove an entire mechanic from the game because of that?

i mean wow devs dont listen to its player base at all. i get what your saying but this game doesnt play like that. all jobs have some utility some jobs have more than others. there is no META here cause all jobs are viable. if a job does less dps then it buffs the rest of the party to do more dps. the game is designed around all jobs being uselful in their own right.

things like haste are not needed in the way our raids are made. its good comparing the 2 mmos but you also have to remember that they are different games and the way that utility is in this game works for this game

[Shurrikhan]

think sleeve draw - used to pull 3 cards but loads of players moaned that they were finding it stressful to do so, couldnt always get a 3 card divination and mp was too hard to maintain. sleeve draw gets a massive nerf and they attach mp regeneration to it.

the problem isnt negligence at all the problem is they pay too much attention to the people unwilling to learn to play their jobs right

And that's not neglecting a majority in favor of a more vocal minority, whilst being disingenuous as to whether the given concept was workable or desirable?

I jest. But I feel this has applied to more than just job changes alone. Whole paths of content as they could have been or how the parameters on content have formed speak to similar problems.

[Marxam]

Which still doesn't change the question, what would be considered "good utility"?
Ultimately, all the non-essential utility in FFXIV is mainly for non-optimal situations or used for trash mobs and everyone calls those bad utility because they're never always needed or even used properly. Then what is considered good utility?

-"Good" utility is anything that restores your resources i.e. HP, MP, TP, job gauge. Things like equilibrium, lucid dreaming, goad, infuriate, etc. that immediately benefit you and is almost always a DPS increase because of ease-of-use and flexibility.

-"Non-essential" utility is anything that is tied to mechanics i.e. stuns, silence, slows, etc. These are situational and supplement DPS but doesn't inherently contribute to it because it is planned and predicted and tied to mechanics. Things like stunning Ifrit eruptions are good but mechanically redundant because it existing doesn't change the fact that you have to deal with it and only offers slight variability in a fight outcome. The same could be said for reprisal, addle etc.

Make note that non-essential utility is useful for extreme, savage, ultimates, and players who actually give a damn about how they play. Every other instanced content is merely there as an option.

[wereotter]

technically demi phoenix has a regen attached to it

It does... but it's almost never when you actually need it, and it's a huge DPS loss to hold onto the phoenix until damage is going out, unless it's just a few seconds. So that Medica 2 you get off the phoenix is more just flavor than anything else.

[Shurrikhan]

technically demi phoenix has a regen attached to it

I have to agree with Wereotter here; if the opportunity costs for using a skill for its utility is almost always in excess of the actual (e.g. healer damage) gains possible from using it, it's not a utility action so much as utility capacity, which is then more a group constraint/allowance than an individual decision.

Worse, if it doesn't time out (or its affected inputs/outputs aren't tuned as) to be frequently useful, it's not utility of any sort, but instead only flavor.