Botting: Good or Evil? lol

[Callinon]

Cheating is bad.

[kaynide]

It's sad that you and Milkie have such poor reading comprehension and can't grasp what the idea of a gray area is. I know neither of you are stupid, but it's like this just is going right over your heads. Not sure if it's intentional just because y'all are hoping to argue, if it's because you can't handle the idea of gray areas, if you only accept certain aspects because you do it but shun the rest since you don't, or what. .

First, incredibly rude.

Your main question was about the use of bots or botting.

Turbo buttons or macros do not equal botting. You do know the difference between macros and botting?

There is grey zone on the matter of peripherals and macros, there is not grey zone on bots.

You are arguing, rather rudely, with people who are saying botting is a flat “no”. Then you are trying to somehow justify usage of non-bot tools somehow makes a grey zone for allowing bots? Get your definitions straight.

[Dragonblanco]

First, incredibly rude.

Your main question was about the use of bots or botting.

Turbo buttons or macros do not equal botting. You do know the difference between macros and botting?

There is grey zone on the matter of peripherals and macros, there is not grey zone on bots.

You are arguing, rather rudely, with people who are saying botting is a flat “no”. Then you are trying to somehow justify usage of non-bot tools somehow makes a grey zone for allowing bots? Get your definitions straight.

Botting = n. a device or piece of software that can execute commands or perform routine tasks, as electronic searches, usually without user intervention (often used in combination): intelligent infobots; shopping bots.

Meaning using a macro that can execute commands or perform routine tasks = botting.

Other definitions of botting:
: a computer program that performs automatic repetitive tasks :
: a computer program or character (as in a game) designed to mimic the actions of a person

Yeah, sounds like macros, doesn't it?

This is what I'm trying to say, some of you are try hards in twisting things just to try to say you're correct and others not. You're either for it or against it. Should things be all 100% player time and skill or do we allow external macros/bots?

And keep in mind, when we say macros, we're not referring to the in-game macros. We're talking about macros created and done by peripherals and external programs.

Call me rude all you want, but when I have people who keep avoiding main points and who are completely arguing nonsense just to argue....

[Dragonblanco]

And remember, I didn't ask what your definition was. The gaming community and the world at large already has determined the meaning of these words. All you need to do is Google to ask what botting is and you'll get your answers. The dictionary, which is universal for everyone, will spell it out for you. So anyone trying to say automated macros which will non-stop do a pre-programed set of commands is not botting....what are you missing? This is why I said reading comprehension and all. I quoted where SE already spelled it out, I had specifically been mentioning in as simple means as possible what it means, and you've had access to the internet and any dictionary in the world. All you had to do is look.

But instead I have the handful of you who try saying it's not gray area just because you don't want it to be. Then you try telling me that macros and botting are different...which developers and dictionaries the world over will disagree with you on.

But maybe you need to see that elsewhere. How about someone who answered about the difference for WoW, their former Community Manager? https://twitter.com/Bashiok/status/598594151874039809

Bashiok
@Bashiok
·
May 13, 2015
Botting is defined as automation of any action, not just character movement. If a program is pressing keys for you, you've violated the ToU.

Again, that was in reference to WoW but it's the same here. Macros pushing buttons for you = botting.

[kaynide]

Botting = n. a device or piece of software that can execute commands or perform routine tasks, as electronic searches, usually without user intervention (often used in combination): intelligent infobots; shopping bots.

Meaning using a macro that can execute commands or perform routine tasks = botting.

Other definitions of botting:
: a computer program that performs automatic repetitive tasks :
: a computer program or character (as in a game) designed to mimic the actions of a person

Yeah, sounds like macros, doesn't it?

This is what I'm trying to say, some of you are try hards in twisting things just to try to say you're correct and others not. You're either for it or against it. Should things be all 100% player time and skill or do we allow external macros/bots?

And keep in mind, when we say macros, we're not referring to the in-game macros. We're talking about macros created and done by peripherals and external programs.

Call me rude all you want, but when I have people who keep avoiding main points and who are completely arguing nonsense just to argue....

Macros are single use, 1 time push operations that require input to fire off. When you automate macros by having them repeat without input, it ceases to be just a macro and surprise, it’s now a bot.

You have no main point. You asked if bots are allowed. The devs (and most of the player base) have said as plain as day: no. What more could you possible want?

[Awha]

First, incredibly rude.

Your main question was about the use of bots or botting.

Turbo buttons or macros do not equal botting. You do know the difference between macros and botting?

There is grey zone on the matter of peripherals and macros, there is not grey zone on bots.

You are arguing, rather rudely, with people who are saying botting is a flat “no”. Then you are trying to somehow justify usage of non-bot tools somehow makes a grey zone for allowing bots? Get your definitions straight.

See this is why discussions like this are extremely hard to have in good faith without coming to a common ground of definitions, cause pedantic approach does lead to many common actions as boting which does technically create a grey area cause such things are allowed.

Same with advantage I do think for the sake of discussion people really should come to a agreed upon definition and what accounts for boting and what accounts for an advantage in the general sense as gaming or I guess what accounts for unauthorized and authorized forms of boting and advantage when it comes to the eyes if the devs and gaming community.

Macros are single use, 1 time push operations that require input to fire off. When you automate macros by having them repeat without input, it ceases to be just a macro and surprise, it’s now a bot.

You have no main point. You asked if bots are allowed. The devs (and most of the player base) have said as plain as day: no. What more could you possible want?

You can make a single use sequence macro that is extremely long depending on the software in question and function one is trying to achieve.

I have not followed much but my guess it appears they are focused on a grey area that exists due to lack of enforcement of the action either willfully or not by SE.

[Dragonblanco]

Macros are single use, 1 time push operations that require input to fire off. When you automate macros by having them repeat without input, it ceases to be just a macro and surprise, it’s now a bot.

Again, you're trying to differentiate and essentially strawman. And for what?

You have no main point. You asked if bots are allowed. The devs (and most of the player base) have said as plain as day: no. What more could you possible want?

I never asked if bots are allowed. These types of comments is why I say a lot of you need to work on your reading comprehension. Seriously, go back to all my comments and the original post. Not once did I ask if they are allowed. Want to know what I said?

Do you think there's a place for botting or SE should get stricter? What are the pros and cons?

Which means in all of your arguing, you didn't know how to read and answer. What yours would be is "I think SE should get stricter. Botting seems bad because "x" and I don't see any pros (or the pros to botting are "y"). Yet somehow it couldn't appeal to you to actually read what people asked and then just answer. Instead you came in with these random arguments and comments.

Oh, and further read that initial post:

So you tell me, what do you like and/or hate about the idea of botting in the game? If they suddenly changed their stance to permit it, would you bot yourself?

Ooh, I said "IF THEY SUDDENLY CHANGED THEIR STANCE TO PERMIT IT."

That means I'm telling you IT IS NOT ALLOWED by TOS. So again, I didn't ask if it's allowed. ffs....

[Dragonblanco]

Macros are single use, 1 time push operations that require input to fire off. When you automate macros by having them repeat without input, it ceases to be just a macro and surprise, it’s now a bot.

You have no main point. You asked if bots are allowed. The devs (and most of the player base) have said as plain as day: no. What more could you possible want?

macro noun
plural macros
Definition of macro (Entry 2 of 3)
: a single computer instruction that stands for a sequence of operations


It doesn't matter if it's one button push to do a whole sequence of events, it's still botting. It's automation that does not exist in the game as created by the developers; thus it is not allowed. There are tons of different types of botting, but botting is botting. It's using automation to perform tasks you're too lazy to do yourself or don't have the time to do. They can serve some very good purposes and make tasks much faster and efficient to do, which is part of why I was asking if we thought that bots should belong in the game or if developers should continue to forbid such actions?

[Skiros]

People are always missing the point when it comes to bots. Okay, so people bot for housing. People bot for the marketboard. That's all crappy and we should get rid of it, but it's not the main issue.

The main issue is that there is software available that completely automates gameplay for every class. Nobody ever talks about it, but it's there and you really never know if someone is actually playing their own class or not. I guess you know if they're really bad, but for the good players, who knows.

They are good enough to be mostly undetectable and get rank 1 on fflogs on easier jobs like BRD/MCH.

[Kes13a]

Maybe this will help define things for you. "botting" as you defined in your original post, is "absentee play", so that the player can be at work, play, spend time with family etc. In those cases, I would think they should log off and spend time with real life people, but we seem to have a differing opinion on that. They are not referring to "macros" which have a limited line amount, if you program a macro button on your keyboard for instance to run eternally, that is absentee play. if you have a macro set up that you have to press or click for it to continue every cycle, that is not absentee play.

■Behaviour that disrupts the game balance
Square Enix strictly prohibits the use of third-party programs or tools – including programs and tools that permit automated or “absentee” play – in Final Fantasy XIV. Accordingly, the following activities are prohibited:

- Modifying, analysing, integrating, and/or reverse engineering game software or data.
- Creating, distributing, using, or promoting utilities that interact with the game.
- Exploiting Square Enix programming bugs or glitches.
- Automating gameplay processes.

The Game Master (GM) may speak to players to investigate and confirm “absentee” play, and if the player continues with this behaviour, contrary to the GM's instructions, this will be treated as “absentee” play and subject to penalties. The following behaviour is also prohibited.

since you want examples of pros and cons:
pros, none, its cheating.

cons: many, but to bring up a few for you
cheaper prices on material, seem like a good deal, but the only buyers for the cheap materials will be the people using absentee play, because they are the only people selling anything
- reason, bots change their pricing every 1--15 minutes to maintain the lowest price so they are the only ones selling gear
- a player can replicate this, but to sell, they need to be active on the market board and change prices, 7 days a week, 24 hours a day, it is a job at that point
excess amount of materials on market
- yes, the nodes do not disappear, but you only need materials if you are crafting, and since crafting can be expensive for gear and materia, see first point, if there is no reason to sell, since market/crafting absentee players can churn out many more items than a non abesentee player, why would you enter crafting?
destruction of 8 crafting classes
- need or desire to craft would become much lower as a majority of the player base would no longer see a point in it.

I mean long and short of it is you are okay with absentee play, and many of your posts and redfinition of what it is definitely point in that direction. I am not.

anyway, since your recent posts have become increasingly hostile towards people not okay with absentee playing, I am done here. have a good journey.