Giving Whm an identity

[Roeshel]

And with that, Benison becomes even less able to be held for when you may actually need a shield. Unless ALL shields are being removed from "pure"/"HoT" healers, you should probably assume that at least in Savage content there may be some need for a shield... to be used as an actual max eHP increase, rather than mere oGCD throughput.

Binding generation to Benison would further increase any opportunity costs for using it as an actual shield. I'd really rather not.



Assuming your Plenary would be an oGCD, it has the prior weave issue, but I otherwise don't hate this. That said, it still seems like you're lavishing inordinate attention upon decoration for a rat-eaten cake. Where's the actual fundamental identity? Let's get that first before we push out the possibilities for the actual meat of the job just to bake a little more flavor into its whip cream.

Scholar's Aetherpool at this point is a bad enough example of an integral mechanic, and it'd still be better than what seems possible from or for Lilies as a similarly time- or cast-afforded resource system with specific spenders without solely stepping on its toes and/or trying to undo its past mistakes to make WHM a better SCH than SCH.

Aren't the lilies not enough? Ast has cards, sch has fairy and whm gets white lilies behind which party buffs and utility are locked. What kind of identity do you propose for whm? I don't expect a complete revamp of the class, that would be the same as making another class.

Plenary is lily consuming GCD.

Benison in savage is used 99% of the cases on the tanks and if it was a pure heal it wouldn't have mattered much. And outside of savage there aren't many aoe that would kill you if you are on full hp but you are not shielded so where would you need that shield saved for? In savage, there is some need for shields but the shields need to be party-wide, not single-target, so benison is completely useless in that aspect already. I mean, I am rarely using it outside tankbusters because there is just no reason to use it, unless the tank's hp drops below 40% - 30%hp. I don't have many weave windows so using benison as an oGCD is my last priority. Giving whm-s an incentive to use that ogcd is how you get ppl to use it to optimize their gameplay.

[Shurrikhan]

Plenary is lily consuming GCD.

Then your

Solace - Plenary - Rapture / Plenary - Solace - Rapture = damage reduction buff

Plenary - Rapture - Solace / Rapture - Plenary - Solace = party regen effect

Rapture - Solace - Plenary / Solace - Rapture - Plenary = damage increase buff

WHM-jutsu would take up to 5 GCDs to set up. There's a reason all but one shield in the game is instant and all percentile mitigation is oGCD.

Aren't the lilies not enough?

Short answer: No.

I don't expect a complete revamp of the class, that would be the same as making another class.

I'd prefer that over a gutless one, if that ultimatum were a real one.

Giving whm-s an incentive to use that ogcd is how you get ppl to use it to optimize their gameplay.

Using a skill even more rigidly on-CD is not "getting people to optimize" it. You've removed what little skill ceiling remains to it.

What kind of identity do you propose for whm?

Off the top of my head, one that builds solidly off its Conjurer roots, with White Magic seeming a logical extension thereof and capitalization thereupon.

[Roeshel]

Then your

WHM-jutsu would take up to 5 GCDs to set up. There's a reason all but one shield in the game is instant and all percentile mitigation is oGCD.

Yes, you need to know what you are doing. This is complexity.

There's a reason all but one shield in the game is instant and all percentile mitigation is oGCD.

Percentile mitigation being ogcd is just making it straight easier to use. The fights are scripted to the last second so managing 3gcds in advance is not that hard. All of the relativity casts of the raid boss with the hardest hitting AoE have 10 sec cast timers. You can cast 4 gcds before the boss has finished casting its raid-wide.

Also, whm does need an additional source of lily generation, 2 per minute is simply insufficient because you need to use some lilies for st healing as well. Forget about the 75 dps loss, whm currently doesn't have enough tools to heal with when healing is required outside casting medica II. You need more lilies.

Benison has no skill ceiling. It doesn't interact with your other spells in any way. It is literally a random spell given to whm with water effects. It barely does anything useful. I don't understand the logic behind not using it because you want to save it for some nonexistent scenario where shields on a single target are required. Ast cards are draw on-CD, does that mean that their skill ceiling is removed. Benison could be an ogcd that simply charges the lilies without the shield effect if you don't like it so much being used on-CD. In any case, whm needs a lot more lilies to be able to be as fluid as water(conjuerer roots) in savage.

And personally, I preferred that Aero had a shorter refresh timer. You get to move more often and weave more. So I definitely support the idea of conjurer roots. If dia turns into a tornado or smth like that with a short but strong dot duration it would be very nice. As for the earth element idk, I like glare more than Stone I, II, III, IV. Maybe they can give us some earth-related spell or ogcd in endwalker.

[Shurrikhan]

Yes, you need to know what you are doing. This is complexity.

Complexity does not require ridiculously low responsiveness. Look at Ninja. It takes at most 1.5 seconds to prep any of various casts, not your 12.5 seconds.

[Roeshel]

Complexity does not require ridiculously low responsiveness. Look at Ninja. It takes at most 1.5 seconds to prep any of various casts, not your 12.5 seconds.

Yeah but whm is not a ninja. Also, ninja is not the only class in existence where you need to press a different set of the same abilities to get a different result. Ninja is all about doing dmg And mine is 3gcd of healing spells and 1 of offensive. All of them are instant, so you can complete the combo in less than 7.5secs. You need to make sure that you've already used 2 lilies spells before using thin air. It's not too much to ask, considering you can get a party-wide damage buff, ast has to make sure they have 3 different seals aligned as well. It's not like you are not responsive, like, literally the places where damage reduction is needed to survive can be counted on one hand and most of them require a tank to use lb3, not your sch or ast you use SS or CU respectively. Basic, Intermediate, Advanced and Terminal Relativity all are with a long cast time and are two minutes apart so that everyone can prepare for the big boom, even though all of the damage reduction abilities are instant oGCDs. It doesn't matter. The game is already designed in a way to give you sufficient time to use mitigation when such is actually needed.

Also, considering the fact that thin air will have 2 or 3 minutes cd, this won't be something that you can be constantly doing, unlike ninja. And since people like higher rdps they would in most cases just use it for the damage buff. The max hp increase from plenary + temprance already brings enough utility from a single healer for hard hitting AoEs.

[Shurrikhan]

Yeah but whm is not a ninja.

"Not Ninja" is not an excuse for a 12.5 second uptime prep time on a mitigation option, be that for entirely scripted, predictable damage or otherwise.

Also, ninja is not the only class in existence where you need to press a different set of the same abilities to get a different result.

Never said it was. I only stated that you don't get to forgo any and all issues of responsiveness in the name of novelty/identity. (See 1.x.)

All of them are instant, so you can complete the combo in less than 7.5secs.

While I would have been less baffled if you'd given a 3-GCD sample initially than your 5-GCD one above, 7.5 seconds remains... very slow.

It's not like you are not responsive, like, literally the places where damage reduction is needed to survive can be counted on one hand and most of them require a tank to use lb3, not your sch or ast you use SS or CU respectively.

Then you are designing only for and around what is already admittedly poorly utilized. Such would as easily warrant the removal of half our healing spells, since we so rarely actually need them anyways.

Basic, Intermediate, Advanced and Terminal Relativity all are with a long cast time and are two minutes apart so that everyone can prepare for the big boom, even though all of the damage reduction abilities are instant oGCDs.

They're spaced 2 min apart so that you can, shockingly, time your raid defensive CDs accordingly. It has nothing to do with giving you two minutes to prepare an effect.

It doesn't matter.

It does matter. Apparent responsiveness... matters. Not feeling like sloggy dog feces... matters.

No matter how much time is technically given in such and such content as the only time one "really" needs X, Y, or Z, does not give license to attach concrete boots to X, Y, or Z. If any of those tools are added, they should feel decent to use, period.

Also, considering the fact that thin air will have 2 or 3 minutes cd, this won't be something that you can be constantly doing, unlike ninja.

You're really stretching this comparison well beyond its intent. I am not saying that your idea would turn WHM into a Ninja-but-as-a-healer. Nor am I saying that the only difference between it and Ninja is that your version would be painfully slow (though such would be historically iconic in the sense of a job introduced after WHM simply having WHM's tools but without the attached BS or constriction to barebone design). It's a simple example of a combinatorial system that clearly does not require 7.5 to 12.5 seconds of prep-work and will certainly be a point of comparison against your (5 to 8.3x as much time required to set up) system if yours were introduced. Will that be an entirely fair comparison? No. But it will be the obvious one, and you'd need to deal with that accordingly.

[Roeshel]

"Not Ninja" is not an excuse for a 12.5 second uptime prep time on a mitigation option, be that for entirely scripted, predictable damage or otherwise.


Never said it was. I only stated that you don't get to forgo any and all issues of responsiveness in the name of novelty/identity. (See 1.x.)


While I would have been less baffled if you'd given a 3-GCD sample initially than your 5-GCD one above, 7.5 seconds remains... very slow.


Then you are designing only for and around what is already admittedly poorly utilized. Such would as easily warrant the removal of half our healing spells, since we so rarely actually need them anyways.


They're spaced 2 min apart so that you can, shockingly, time your raid defensive CDs accordingly. It has nothing to do with giving you two minutes to prepare an effect.


It does matter. Apparent responsiveness... matters. Not feeling like sloggy dog feces... matters.

No matter how much time is technically given in such and such content as the only time one "really" needs X, Y, or Z, does not give license to attach concrete boots to X, Y, or Z. If any of those tools are added, they should feel decent to use, period.


You're really stretching this comparison well beyond its intent. I am not saying that your idea would turn WHM into a Ninja-but-as-a-healer. Nor am I saying that the only difference between it and Ninja is that your version would be painfully slow (though such would be historically iconic in the sense of a job introduced after WHM simply having WHM's tools but without the attached BS or constriction to barebone design). It's a simple example of a combinatorial system that clearly does not require 7.5 to 12.5 seconds of prep-work and will certainly be a point of comparison against your (5 to 8.3x as much time required to set up) system if yours were introduced. Will that be an entirely fair comparison? No. But it will be the obvious one, and you'd need to deal with that accordingly.

Saying that 7.5 gcds is unresponsive is like claiming that AST's star is unresponsive because it needs 10 seconds for a bigger heal. But the fact is, that if it has been timed and placed correctly it is one of the most rewarding ogcd to use. At one point ppl just need to l2p. Relativity casts have 10 secs cast time aside from being 2 min apart, exactly to prepare your gcds and ogcds. It has everything to do with preparing for the big blast with mitigation and shields aka effects. And there is just no point addressing everything else, we are going in circles. You didn't even grasp it correctly, because you would know that the whole thing is actually 6 gcds - 5 lilies and 1 misery, you just want to reject the idea. Anyway, arguing pointlessly won't change anything about whm. Let's see what end walker brings.