Splitting SMN in Two

[dezzmont]

Summoner doesn't have an "identity crisis"; a few people just don't like the identity.

Its mechanical identity is sublime. Its thematic identity is... baaaaaad.

Its bad. Lets not mince words. SMN's visuals and ties to its fantasy (both in the greater Final Fantasy series, and in universe where pretty much every Egi we encounter is way cooler than ours despite Egis being 'the point') is really bad. I suspect almost all of the complaints about SMN would vanish overnight if it solved the '2.0 visuals' problem. Its sorta up there with Monk in how bad the visuals and impact of their abilities hold back the job.

All damage is "Damage over time" it just depends on how it is used. BLM has massive Burst damage while Summoner has death by 1000 cuts and Red Mage lives somewhere in between. Remove all the visuals of a job and you'll notice that the dummy is taking slow big hits from one, faster milder hits from another, and a steady stream of hits from the other.

This is an interesting thought experiment because, yeah, if you removed all visuals a lot of jobs people really like might do a lot worse, and vice versa. Like BLM is probably safe despite Fire IV being one of the most satisfying spells in terms of 'impact' in the game, but BRD comes to mind as a job that does a lot of 'heavy lifting' with visual flair. And heck, people might actually like MNK a lot more once its not dragged into the dirt by how not visually rewarding its main mechanics are.

And that isn't a trivial or petty complaint. Visual design is a key element of game design, and its a huge part of the FF series overall. And summoner is a super iconic job. Summoner. Not SMN. I think Summoner could exist in SMN, but right now it doesn't, and a lot of discussions by SMN mains seem to admit this as if it isn't a big problem that puts the entire mechanical identity of SMN at risk, because I don't believe the devs would preserve SMN, the job from one game, over Summoner, the iconic FF job that utilizes some of the most iconic abilities in the series.

Again, I think most of the 'SMN is actually not really a Summoner at all" complaints come from how bad the job is at conveying what is actually happening with your egi and egi assaults and how clunky those feel. I am hoping the overhaul is just that, but considering the Egi mechanically doesn't exist for most purposes besides weird cast delays and pre-setting the AoE for Devotion I suspect it will be more substantial.

[Tulzscha]

Summoner doesn't have an "identity crisis"; a few people just don't like the identity.

All damage is "Damage over time" it just depends on how it is used. BLM has massive Burst damage while Summoner has death by 1000 cuts and Red Mage lives somewhere in between. Remove all the visuals of a job and you'll notice that the dummy is taking slow big hits from one, faster milder hits from another, and a steady stream of hits from the other.

The point is that SMN has two different ideas going on at the same time: summons and the Miasma/Bio/Fester/etc. package. And while yes spamming Ruin deals damage over time Ruin is not a damage over time spell, those are specifically spells like Bio that put a debuff on an enemy and deal damage... over time, without any additional input from the caster.

Its mechanical identity is sublime. Its thematic identity is... baaaaaad.

I think most of the 'SMN is actually not really a Summoner at all" complaints come from how bad the job is at conveying what is actually happening with your egi and egi assaults and how clunky those feel. I am hoping the overhaul is just that, but considering the Egi mechanically doesn't exist for most purposes besides weird cast delays and pre-setting the AoE for Devotion I suspect it will be more substantial.

Yes SMN is very fun to play (imo) which is the most important thing. Thematically the dots have nothing to do with the summons and egis look, feel, and are weak. When you think "Summoner" you think someone who summons things to deal with enemies for them and we don't really do that. The vast majority of our damage comes from Ruin, dots, and Fester. Egis exist more to enable Ruin IV than anything.

Before demi summons came along we were essentially Warlocks with a different name. And I'm cool with that, I like Warlocks, but they're not Summoners. Now that we have Bahamut and Phoenix we're starting to feel more like actual Summoners but much of our kit is cut off from them both mechanically and thematically.

[dezzmont]

Yes SMN is very fun to play (imo) which is the most important thing. Thematically the dots have nothing to do with the summons and egis look, feel, and are weak. When you think "Summoner" you think someone who summons things to deal with enemies for them and we don't really do that. The vast majority of our damage comes from Ruin, dots, and Fester. Egis exist more to enable Ruin IV than anything.

Before demi summons came along we were essentially Warlocks with a different name. And I'm cool with that, I like Warlocks, but they're not Summoners. Now that we have Bahamut and Phoenix we're starting to feel more like actual Summoners but much of our kit is cut off from them both mechanically and thematically.

its interesting for you to say that Egis are weak but Demis are strong when Egis are more damage output than either Demi (though, admittedly not both). For perspective, apparently the output of the egi is on par with the output of Bard's song mechanics of Bloodletter and Pitch Perfect, and this is ignoring Ruin IV entirely.

They aren't weak at all, they are as strong as many job's 'main' mechanics, its just that they are visually so terribly designed most people wouldn't ever notice because you get so little visual impact from hitting an egi assault button it feels like nothing, despite it actually being a weavable 250 potency (ok, pet scaling being what it is, probably 200) attack, which is extremely strong for a weave and you having the ability to hit that weave every 15 seconds.

Dots make sense for summoner in a few ways thematically (For example, carbuncle in FF is historically a DOT summon, so them being our first """"Summon"""" despite lorewise not being a summon makes it work a bit better), and they aren't actually detracting that much from the Egi. Its just that the Egi, again, looks so freakin baaaaaaad. Its on par with Bootshine in terms of hiding how much its actually doing for you and creating a very lackluster feel to them.

I personally think the fact we DON'T have Demis up all the time is important to the mechanical feel of SMN AND making it feel like a summoner. Summoners in FF overall don't just 'have' their summons, they are in the games generally either that game's limit-break system and are character specific (ex: Snow in FF13 summons Shiva), are super spells that have huge charge times or mana costs (Ex: 6 and 7), or are a character's 'ultimate ability' that override's the party and is not meant to be generally used because it has serious weaknesses (ex: FFX). The concept of 'charging up' the demi via trances and mostly fighting personally is actually EXTREMELY FF summoner, and while its kinda bad there isn't a good thematic link between dreadwyrm trance into summoning Bahumat (and maybe holding dreadwyrm aether should give you a little glow to make it more clear you 'charged up' the summon), it actually makes a lot of sense thematically and mechanically the summoner has to 'earn' Bahumat and Phoenix (and, if we ever get egi-glams, maybe other glammed demis as well, so its more clear a demi is just a 'powered up' egi).

This is why I am not a fan of proposed SMN reworks despite generally sitting in the 'Actually no SMN is in a really bad spot right now.' It MECHANICALLY feels a LOT like a summoner! Its just that what the visuals prioritize and creates in game doesn't at all.

Its just that nuance is hard and language is imprecise and 'The character animations undersell what is happening too much' is a really fiddly opinion that no one is going to naturally reach unless they just happen to look and go 'hey wait Flaming Crush and Crimson Cyclone are actually a LOT of potency that come off cooldown VERY fast, despite the animations being so downplayed I can't even see them while looking for them and it feeling like nothing happens besides me getting Ruin IV when I hit this button."

[Tulzscha]

its interesting for you to say that Egis are weak but Demis are strong when Egis are more damage output than either Demi (though, admittedly not both). For perspective, apparently the output of the egi is on par with the output of Bard's song mechanics of Bloodletter and Pitch Perfect, and this is ignoring Ruin IV entirely.

They aren't weak at all, they are as strong as many job's 'main' mechanics, its just that they are visually so terribly designed most people wouldn't ever notice because you get so little visual impact from hitting an egi assault button it feels like nothing, despite it actually being a weavable 250 potency (ok, pet scaling being what it is, probably 200) attack, which is extremely strong for a weave and you having the ability to hit that weave every 15 seconds.

Dots make sense for summoner in a few ways thematically (For example, carbuncle in FF is historically a DOT summon, so them being our first """"Summon"""" despite lorewise not being a summon makes it work a bit better), and they aren't actually detracting that much from the Egi. Its just that the Egi, again, looks so freakin baaaaaaad. Its on par with Bootshine in terms of hiding how much its actually doing for you and creating a very lackluster feel to them.

I personally think the fact we DON'T have Demis up all the time is important to the mechanical feel of SMN AND making it feel like a summoner. Summoners in FF overall don't just 'have' their summons, they are in the games generally either that game's limit-break system and are character specific (ex: Snow in FF13 summons Shiva), are super spells that have huge charge times or mana costs (Ex: 6 and 7), or are a character's 'ultimate ability' that override's the party and is not meant to be generally used because it has serious weaknesses (ex: FFX). The concept of 'charging up' the demi via trances and mostly fighting personally is actually EXTREMELY FF summoner, and while its kinda bad there isn't a good thematic link between dreadwyrm trance into summoning Bahumat (and maybe holding dreadwyrm aether should give you a little glow to make it more clear you 'charged up' the summon), it actually makes a lot of sense thematically and mechanically the summoner has to 'earn' Bahumat and Phoenix (and, if we ever get egi-glams, maybe other glammed demis as well, so its more clear a demi is just a 'powered up' egi).

This is why I am not a fan of proposed SMN reworks despite generally sitting in the 'Actually no SMN is in a really bad spot right now.' It MECHANICALLY feels a LOT like a summoner! Its just that what the visuals prioritize and creates in game doesn't at all.

Its just that nuance is hard and language is imprecise and 'The character animations undersell what is happening too much' is a really fiddly opinion that no one is going to naturally reach unless they just happen to look and go 'hey wait Flaming Crush and Crimson Cyclone are actually a LOT of potency that come off cooldown VERY fast, despite the animations being so downplayed I can't even see them while looking for them and it feeling like nothing happens besides me getting Ruin IV when I hit this button."

When you completely ignore uptime sure Egis deal more damage than Demis. They're still weaker. It's not all about visuals, the fact that they're out all the time makes them less meaningful and the fact that their abilities are ogcd makes them feel unimpactful. Like you said with Demis, it's important that they're not out all the time and I don't think we should always have a Demi out because those are special moments, but we could bring up the Egis a bit and make them more special.

The main reasons I like the idea of a rotating Egi system are to add more variety, utility, and interactions with summons to the job. We would still always have an Egi out but they could at least do something cool upon summon so they're less of an afterthought, only to be utilized in between the "important" spells (as spells on the gcd have more weight to them).

I do really like the idea of putting more emphasis on Trance again to make summons feel more impactful as stated in my first post here, and if our lesser summons could be involved in the process rather than temporarily discarded in favor of something stronger, all the better.

Also I've always known Carbuncle to cast Reflect on the party, not sure where it being a dot summon comes from. (FFXI maybe? Haven't played that one.)

[dezzmont]

When you completely ignore uptime sure Egis deal more damage than Demis. They're still weaker. It's not all about visuals, the fact that they're out all the time makes them less meaningful and the fact that their abilities are ogcd makes them feel unimpactful.

Yes, if your talking about burst damage, demis are weaker. However uptime does NOT make abilities less special or worse. Fire 4 is probably the best visual design of any spell in the game and single handedly makes black mage feel amazing because you get to do this awesome spell ALL THE TIME. Monk rarely gets to use Forbidden Chakra but it still feels like trash because the spell looks like trash. Its a question of how good the ability feels to use, not how often you get it.

The problem is not 'you always have egis.' Trust me, as a former Black Mage main, its very possible for you to always be able to do something and it still feeling great every time due A++ visual and sound design. If egi assaults had the exact animations and sounds of fire 4 and flare instead of their current assaults, with the exact same mechanics and potencies, people would not be complaining Egis felt pointless. You can watch a GIF of those spells and feel powerful. Same with Fell Cleave, same with Akh Morn, or even Apex Arrow (An ability most bards actively don't like mechanically! But you can't deny it looks cool and feels cool to fire even if it actively mucks with the job!).

The main reasons I like the idea of a rotating Egi system are to add more variety, utility, and interactions with summons to the job.

While I agree with the goal of making Egis more impactful and 'present' forcibly rotating egis on the summoner and making un-summoning them a frequently payed cost is such a bad idea, as is forcing the summoner to 'stance change' what their egis do. It leans even harder on the ability of pets to rapidly act, and scuttles egi glamming once and for all, which is awful.

Also, as many others have said, Bard exists and already does this 'change between 3 stances that alter their abilities' thing. Its just not a good idea and it doesn't actually address the problems of SMN.

What does this system legitimately add to SMN mechanically other than a lot of tedium, when what you are trying to do is make the presence of egis noticable, which, again, is almost entirely a spell animation issue that has nothing to do with mechanics (because, trust me, its SUPER noticeable when the SMN doesn't use egi assault. Again, on par with BRD just not bothering to use pitch perfect ever).

Also I've always known Carbuncle to cast Reflect on the party, not sure where it being a dot summon comes from. (FFXI maybe? Haven't played that one.)

It was from XI, as well as its first appearance in V as an enemy. Bio is sorta on again off again a signature spell of Carbuncle, and I can see a 6 style 'your summons also teach you spells' angle.

[Dyvid]

Snip

So I agree with Dezzmont on this. Everyone views Egi as weak because of the visual design, not the DPS it's produces. There is actually combat data on unmentioned sites where you can see how much DPS the pets do. Also, I'm not sure why you keep calling Egi DoTs. They are, for a better word, a NPC that auto attacks but require input from Summoner to perform actions. Currently Summoner DPS splits between 65-70% player 30-35% pet. I would personally like to see a 50/50 split but I understand that the job does have the "mobility tax"; yes after doing relic grind in 50/60/70 24man raids again the job is very mobile because of DoTs, commanding Egi while moving, and instant cast from Trance. In fact the only spells you have to hard cast is Ruin and miasama on occasion.

But back to Dezz's point, if you replaced Garuda and Ifrit with say FFXI Avatars, most of the Egi complaints would die down.

As for the DoT complain, the real problem is SMN has too many mechanics that have built up over the years; DoTs, Aetherflow, Trance, Egi's, Demi's, Ruin Mage. Some of the stuff needs to be pruned or combined. DoT's have been apart of SMN since 2.0 but has been diminished over the years (old players will remember this: Miasama, Bio, Bio II, Shadowflare). DWT, Demi Bahamut; FWT + Demi Phoenix showcase another issue on how disjointed things have become in 5.XX. Aetherflow is another as it feels like a relic as well. Removing DoTs isn't really going to help Egi's feel better nor would adding them to a rotation Trance thing because people will still be put off by the design. Plus that would cut into the already established Trance rotation the job already has.

But the reality is SE has most likely finished their Summoner 6.0 design and all we can do is sit and wait for it to be reveled to the public.

[Flana]

But back to Dezz's point, if you replaced Garuda and Ifrit with say FFXI Avatars, most of the Egi complaints would die down.

I would infinitely rather have the current egis over the plastic action figures that just slide around. Not to mention just model swapping would do nothing for the major source of complaints, which is ability ghosting. If you want to solve that immediately, Demi pets have to go. Forced petswaps force in so much more jank than the egi's ever had before Stormblood. Not to mention this is a problem endemic to demis. If you deleted egis you would still have ghosting issues because the demi is a hard swap once the timer runs out.

[dezzmont]

But back to Dezz's point, if you replaced Garuda and Ifrit with say FFXI Avatars, most of the Egi complaints would die down.

I don't think its a modeling problem. Heck, even the model's animations themselves are quite decent. Its more effects and what the animations are.

Ifrit's base attack, for example, would actually be a pretty rad mid-grade melee attack (Like an upgraded rotation, or a minor oGCD). Its a cool side slash with a flame effect, just look at it!

But its actually going to look more like this. Or... worse, imagine like 3 other melee going ham on that dummy and also your casting spells too.

What would be an awesome ability for a samurai to cast looks terrible for a caster or ranged, because the jobs have different needs. For them, the animation needs to read clear and well from a distance and have a lot of impact. This is the case for their assaults too. Flaming Crush is... kinda an explosion? But its a melee sorta explosion, like inner release.

Caster and ranged 'impact animations' are subtly different than melee ones. Their particle effects are more 'busy' because the focus isn't on a character doing something awesome like screaming into the air Inner Release style, and they tend to 'rise' higher as a rule so you can see them. If you look at fire 4, deathflare, xenoglosy, pitch perfect, ect, you notice they try to fly over the 'melee line' so they aren't obstructed, or are giant pillars that you will definitely see. A subtle and clever method of making sure your cool spells aren't easily obstructed by your Warrior.

Only Inferno is really appropriate for a 'caster animation' and even then its sorta minor, and your character doesn't do too much. It would be nice for say... egi assault 1 or 2, but your capstone on a 2 minute cooldown? No way.

This is why I think an animation pass is so necessary. A lot of the animations would work fine for a melee and were designed from that perspective without really thinking of how they look to the summoner and how they fit into caster/ranged animations, which go out of their way to 'go high.' Which is really cool and clever and subtle design you might not notice unless your looking for it, and which is absent noticably from the egi.

In my opinion, the fix is admitting egi movement management is silly and only exists to let you pre-place devotion's AOE and to make some of your egi-centered AOEs frustratingly miss sometimes. Biting the bullet and making it your pokemon that follows you around and does ALL its attacks at range by your side frees you up to basically intertwine its cast animations with yours and allows you to design its 'impact' animations as caster/ranged animations, and get rid of all the pet control jank.