About damage essences in Delubrum/Dalriada

[Goji1639]

So, from a self-centered perspective, it doesn't benefit you to farm essence when you can just walk in. You know it contributes nothing to the group, but you don't care because it doesn't contribute enough for you. Perfectly fair to feel that way, people won't respect you for it but that's another debate, it's better than arguing a false point over 17 pages.

You're wrong on efficiency because PF Essence runs exist. 18 minutes average per run x5 + 15 minutes Cluster grind + 15 minutes setting up groups is much less than 45 minutes average x5. But that's your own choice.

I haven't been arguing a false point; I've been arguing efficiency this whole time. My entire point has been that farming essences for DF is a waste of time, and I'm 100% correct. People calling me lazy, a leech, whatever were never addressing the actual issue; they were just throwing out petty insults to avoid addressing my points.

PF essence runs are a different issue; they require essences so you have to farm. I never said I should be allowed into a PF speed run without farming essences.

Youre the guy going on rants about how the devs are lazy and manipulative because you dont like bozja content and everyone who is enjoying essences and lost actions are lemmings or sheep.

You might wanna go outside and touch some grass, instead of faffing around in content you clearly resent.

It's definitely lazy and manipulative, but I don't care if you enjoy that. Plenty of people love cheap, lazy mobile games and I don't fault them for it. The people who skirt the issue and try to paint the devs as altruists who were promoting human decency are definitely lemmings, though.

The devs just came up with a lazy grind to keep you all farming in circles for negative output, because that's easier than designing a reward structure. If you're enjoying it then god bless, but plenty of people will see it for what it is and avoid it. Doesn't mean they won't still want their relic, though.

What technicals? The "using essence only saves 1 minute" number that you pulled out of your hat? How did you verify and prove this?

I provided the Math earlier in the thread. It was obviously an approximation based on normalized input, but the result is basically that a skirmisher essence saves a slow run 24 seconds. Rounding up to a minute is a very conservative and generous way to account for the inevitable variations in the data that would result from real application.

[Nethereal]

I haven't been arguing a false point; I've been arguing efficiency this whole time. My entire point has been that farming essences for DF is a waste of time, and I'm 100% correct. People calling me lazy, a leech, whatever were never addressing the actual issue; they were just throwing out petty insults to avoid addressing my points.

The irony here is palpable.

You've had this conversation in 3 different threads, been disproven in each of them and in one of them you were even given video evidence.
Combine this with the nerfed requirements from last patch you honestly have to be intentionally being intellectually dishonest or you're an amazing troll.

Either way considering how much time you have here to waste on the forums about the same topic you're wrong about I can safely conclude it's not about the math, the relic, or the farm as to why you don't want to get essences.

I won't deny it though if everyone in NA has your mindset it really is pointless to do casual content in df.

[Vahlnir]

Either way considering how much time you have here to waste on the forums about the same topic you're wrong about I can safely conclude it's not about the math, the relic, or the farm as to why you don't want to get essences.

Correct, it's not about any of those things. They just don't want to be wrong. What they will likely do, however, is argue until everyone else gives up out of frustration and then say "See? SEE?! I WAS RIGHT!"

[Goji1639]

The irony here is palpable.

You've had this conversation in 3 different threads, been disproven in each of them and in one of them you were even given video evidence.
Combine this with the nerfed requirements from last patch you honestly have to be intentionally being intellectually dishonest or you're an amazing troll.

Either way considering how much time you have here to waste on the forums about the same topic you're wrong about I can safely conclude it's not about the math, the relic, or the farm as to why you don't want to get essences.

I won't deny it though if everyone in NA has your mindset it really is pointless to do casual content in df.

Oh gee, look. Another post of someone ignoring every point I've made and just saying I'm wrong without providing any argument, logic, math or even an attempt at a thought. Just bringing up old threads with no context and "videos," that have supposedly proven me wrong, where I wouldn't have even the slightest clue what you're talking about. It's amazing how you people stick around here but go to such great lengths to avoid the actual discussion.

Correct, it's not about any of those things. They just don't want to be wrong. What they will likely do, however, is argue until everyone else gives up out of frustration and then say "See? SEE?! I WAS RIGHT!"

Seriously, what have you done here that could even abstractly be considered proving me wrong? All you people do is avoid addressing any points I've made, and just look to each other for reassurance. I've been doing ALL of the legwork in terms of providing actual sound argument, while you all do your best to avoid contributing anything worthwhile and just cheerlead each other.

It's not that I don't want to be wrong, it's that I'm not wrong until you provide SOMETHING that punches a hole in what I'm saying. The Math and Logic I've provided are what prove me right, and if you want me to be wrong you have to address those things. I know you won't, though, because you're not comfortable doing anything here but fishing for reassurance.

No you're not.

Sums up the level of discourse I'm getting from the people I'm "discussing" this with nicely.

[Vahlnir]

Oh gee, look. Another post of someone ignoring every point I've made and just saying I'm wrong without providing any argument, logic, math or even an attempt at a thought. Just bringing up old threads with no context and "videos," that have supposedly proven me wrong, where I wouldn't have even the slightest clue what you're talking about. It's amazing how you people stick around here but go to such great lengths to avoid the actual discussion.



Seriously, what have you done here that could even abstractly be considered proving me wrong? All you people do is avoid addressing any points I've made, and just look to each other for reassurance. I've been doing ALL of the legwork in terms of providing actual sound argument, while you all do your best to avoid contributing anything worthwhile and just cheerlead each other.

It's not that I don't want to be wrong, it's that I'm not wrong until you provide SOMETHING that punches a hole in what I'm saying. The Math and Logic I've provided are what prove me right, and if you want me to be wrong you have to address those things. I know you won't, though, because you're not comfortable doing anything here but fishing for reassurance.



Sums up the level of discourse I'm getting from the people I'm "discussing" this with nicely.

You have been presented with the facts, and there has been many holes punched through your arguments and you have had your logic completely disintegrated like a Savage tank buster deleting a healer from the game. Multiple times in multiple threads. You just don't want to hear them. Just because you don't want to hear them doesn't mean they don't exist. But, since this is the case with you, we are all wasting our time trying to get you to see that. And it is for that reason I will be bowing out of this thread. Good luck. You're going to need it.

[Goji1639]

You have been presented with the facts. You just don't want to hear them. Just because you don't want to hear them doesn't mean they don't exist.

The only response I received that used numbers and logic was the cumulative gains argument, which I addressed and countered with numbers and logic. Once I countered that you all devolved into what's happening right now... This whole telling me I'm wrong while not actually making anything that resembles a point thing you keep doing.

I don't know if you think these kinds of evasive non-responses are convincing or clever, but they're not. It's like you all have nothing to defend your positions with but for some reason you can't stop talking.

[Kaurhz]

x

I don't mean to be that one guy; once again. But the reason people aren't listening to you is that you aren't really creating a good argument in the first place, and are just looking for an excuse in order to rationalize doing the absolute bare minimum to get by without having regard for yours, and most importantly other peoples' time. What I find really strange is the time that you've spent here arguing bad takes is time that you could have spent farming for essences.

You talk about not being good from the perspective of a farmer, but if we look at the average run in duty finder, this is approximately 45 minutes, and that is taking into account with some people actually using essences. Comparative to everyone using a modicum of offensive essences in addition to some support essences crunches that 45 minutes into an approximate run of 15 minutes. This means that you on average will save you approximately 1 minute and 20~ seconds per player on the essence, and again, these are average scenarios. The only reason these values aren't even a bigger disparity is that you actually have some individuals in a run that actually respect their own time and the time of other people in the instance.

Across the course of a whole relic, this turns out to be 30 minutes per run or 30*7.5 per relic. This means per relic the collective group will save approximately 200 minutes per relic, or 3 hours and 20 minutes. Across the course of all 17 relics, this turns out to be around 63 hours saved by respecting your own time and the time of other people. You are simply wrong on these bases.

If everyone were to go by your misapprehension then we'd be looking at a consistent minimum time of around 50-55 minutes. If this were the case, then even taking into account the buff, it'd be quicker for people to just do premade Palace of the Dead.

If you don't want to use essences for whatever reason then by all means go ahead, but don't try and justify it on the premise that you're playing efficiently when you clearly are doing anything but that. You just don't respect other peoples' time, simple as that.

[Goji1639]

snip

You're making the cumulative gains argument again, but that doesn't work for DF. What happens if everyone uses essences is irrelevant because you can't control that. If you use an essence everyone else might not; if you don't use an essence everyone else still might; so you can't justify farming essences by saying "IF everyone used one you'd save x amount of time." I'm not controlling what everyone else does by using an essence; I'm only adding to my own output, which only adds up to roughly 30 seconds shaved off of any given run. Over the course of an entire relic you're only saving maybe 2-3 minutes, so if it takes longer than 3 minutes to farm enough essences for your relic then you're losing time. That's the reality of how it works.

Now if you want to say PF runs that require essences are more efficient you'd be right, but as far as DF is concerned farming essences will always be a loss of your time.

[Kaurhz]

You're making the cumulative gains argument again, but that doesn't work for DF. What happens if everyone uses essences is irrelevant because you can't control that. If you use an essence everyone else might not; so you can't justify farming essences by saying "if everyone used one you'd save x amount of time." I'm not controlling what everyone else does by using an essence; I'm only adding to my own output, which only adds up to roughly 30 seconds shaved off of any given run. Over the course of an entire relic you're only saving maybe 2-3 minutes, so if it takes longer than 3 minutes to farm enough essences for your relic then you're losing time. That's the reality of how it works.

Now if you want to say PF runs that require essences are more efficient you'd be right, but as far as DF is concerned farming essences will always be a loss of your time.

No, your individual effort accounts for approximately 1.2 minutes of any given run between whether you do or don't use an essence. Not this 30 seconds, or 24 seconds which you so joyfully baselessly ride around on.

Since you can't really see the perspective of this from a 'playing with other people and respecting their time' point of view - Let's look at it from a different perspective. Each run you use an essence shaves off around 1.2 minutes, across the course of an entire relic, this turns around to be 9 minutes, across the course of all 17 relics this turns out to be around 153 minutes of your time, and time shave off from everyone else. Just as a few little numbers. A decent bozjan cluster farm group will produce 150 fragments per hour, across 2 hours this amounts to 300 fragments. A cluster farm group playing optimally will produce upwards of 200 fragments per hour, or 400 in 2 hours. Needless to tell you these can be used or sold depending on your needs to buy more appropriate fragments if you're a healer or tank.

Now a little lesson, 2 hours still leaves you with 33 minutes to spare over not running with any essence. This doesn't even take in the cumulative gains argument which you so joyfully want to dismiss despite playing an MMO. So you still lose the argument on account of individuality perspective efficiency. - If you don't know how to farm fragments effectively then that is your own fault; you can't create an argument of efficiency or inefficiency when you've probably barely explored with the prospect otherwise. So yes, you still lose, sorry.

[Goji1639]

snip

Your individual contribution may be 1.2 minutes (your figure; no idea how you came up with it), but a Skirmisher essence (random example) only represents a 20% increase in your contribution. So, a Skirmisher essence would only increase your output by roughly 15 seconds, using your 1.2 minute figure. So, by popping a Skirmisher you've saved 15 seconds. If it took you longer than 15 seconds to farm that Skirmisher you've already lost time.

Now if you think the fact that you're contributing more is worth the negative time investment that's great, but it's NOT efficient. I agree your mentality is more group friendly, and may have other benefits beyond efficiency, but it is NOT more efficient.

Look, what I'm stating here is logistical, mathematical fact. I know you all want to be able to say I'm wrong because you want people to farm essences for DF, and the information I'm stating here is counterintuitive to that. You're all being dishonest, though. Just say "YES, it's less efficient but you should do it anyways because it's the more considerate thing to do." If you could do that I couldn't say you're wrong and we'd have some common ground to part ways on. You keep insisting it's more efficient in DF, though, and you're wrong about that.