Are the numbers too high?

[Roaran]

There are a lot of assumptions in this thread. First that attribute points are useless, and second that you need a lot of them to make a significant difference.

Take Melee damage for example,
The way Attack works is, you get great benefits from attack for smaller amounts, but then there are diminishing returns. With each bit of attack you stack, you get lesser gains. After a certain point, Strength becomes better; and, Strength works in the exact opposite way. The more Strength you stack, the greater its effect on your damage will be. So, if you just have 30 Strength and no attack, you will see little difference. But, if you stack 10-30 attack, and 100+ Strength, you will see incredible gains.

Typically the problem isn't the game, it's usually the confused people.

Also to the OP's point, your arguing for a subjective, pointless, and arbitrary issue is silly at best.

[Jinko]

Typically the problem isn't the game, it's usually the confused people.

Then it is a problem with the game as its too confusing, you can spin it in either direction.

[lucas_b]

Take Melee damage for example,
The way Attack works is, you get great benefits from attack for smaller amounts, but then there are diminishing returns. With each bit of attack you stack, you get lesser gains. After a certain point, Strength becomes better; and, Strength works in the exact opposite way. The more Strength you stack, the greater its effect on your damage will be. So, if you just have 30 Strength and no attack, you will see little difference. But, if you stack 10-30 attack, and 100+ Strength, you will see incredible gains.

...

Also to the OP's point, your arguing for a subjective, pointless, and arbitrary issue is silly at best.

I think the OP means, when my base attack is already 500, how will a gauntlet giving +5 attack provide me with any noticeable benefit? Assuming the additional stats work in a linear way, increasing 500 attk to 505 attk really seems trivial, a ~1% in output dmg or so.

Then Kaeko said there may be an alternative calculation so that one additional stat can have multiplied effect on final output, say, that particular +5 attk may actually boost dmg output for say 8% rather than 1%, assuming the formula is NOT linear.

OP is saying the way the numbers presented to the players are kind of weird to comprehend that's all, normally human brain perceives numbers as they are presented in plain fashion. It's not subjective nor arbitrary to some of us, it's a very valid point and I've been wondering since beta too.

[Alise]

Well, those FF1-13 give you incredible 9999 or 99999 numbers when you have 255 STR. it doesn't happen here tho, your 250 Str and 500 attack only hit thing like ... 100 ?

[Roaran]

I think you have to ask, at which point is the game no longer confusing? Everyone has different capacities for understanding. So, you're never going to have absolute understanding.

If the game is working as intended, then you can't fault the system itself. You can only fault the developers for not revealing information they may or may not have wanted to reveal. If the argument is against the system having too high of numbers, or not being very open, then even if you understand everything and the numbers are changed, the game is exactly the same. If everyone was happy at that point, then there technically isn't anything wrong with the system itself.

I'm sure there's lots of information that everyone could benefit from if the developers released their spreadsheets, formulas, and calculations. But, at the end of the day, they made the decision to not provide those things to us. So their obfuscation of such things is intended.

I haven't read any arguments against that intent, and with regards to the effects of the attributes themselves, that's where they should be directed.

[Roaran]

I think the OP means, when my base attack is already 500, how will a gauntlet giving +5 attack provide me with any noticeable benefit? Assuming the additional stats work in a linear way, increasing 500 attk to 505 attk really seems trivial, a ~1% in output dmg or so.

Then Kaeko said there may be an alternative calculation so that one additional stat can have multiplied effect on final output, say, that particular +5 attk may actually boost dmg output for say 8% rather than 1%, assuming the formula is NOT linear.

OP is saying the way the numbers presented to the players are kind of weird to comprehend that's all, normally human brain perceives numbers as they are presented in plain fashion. It's not subjective nor arbitrary to some of us, it's a very valid point and I've been wondering since beta too.

The function for Strength and its effect on damage output for Marauder is a polynomial of some degree greater than 1. Simply states, its a very simple formula that, as inputs get larger, the change in outputs get larger. Even more simply stated, each additional point of Strength grants an even greater ouput of damage than the previous point of Strength.

Attack, on the other hand, works in the opposite way. Granting less damage per attack as you stack more attack.

The basic conclusion from these is:

If you stack hardly any strength, the benefits are weak. The more you stack the greater the effect will be.

If you stack a lot of Attack, most of it is wasted, and you will see no increase in damage.


I see most people in game stacking attack, and probably not realizing this. So when they see no difference in their damage even though they stack 200+ attack or whatever, they naturally blame the system.

That's natural and happens to everyone. But it isn't a problem with the game necessarily, the information is there if you're willing to look and not assume your first conclusion is correct.

... the right stats make fairly significant differences.

[Jinko]

Well in that case they need better tool tips in game to demonstrate the values STR and ATK have on output DMG on a monster of the same level. (this goes for def, mag def, mag dmg and healing aswell)

If you take a look at how WoW displays its stats and damage, it gives the player the information they need in a simple way even though the calculations behind it are pretty complex.

SE seem to have this odd behaviour of hiding stats or making everything random, maybe its an eastern thing to be so secretive.

If players could see STR + 10 = X amount of DPS/Damage then it wouldn't be so confusing.

In turn if you then change gear for something with ATK + 10 and it gives more DPS/Damage you can clearly see which is the better piece of armour.

That being said we will no doubt end up getting this eventually with in game parsers and DPS meters when 2.0 allows addons.

This doesn't really solve the issue the OP has regarding low stats values on gear in general though.

[lucas_b]

The function for Strength and its effect on damage output for Marauder is a polynomial of some degree greater than 1. Simply states, its a very simple formula that, as inputs get larger, the change in outputs get larger. Even more simply stated, each additional point of Strength grants an even greater ouput of damage than the previous point of Strength....

That all sounds good and I'm not gonna challenge you for it, but my point is, consider this:

Say I'm a lvl30 MRD, and I'm looking to buy gear appropriate for my level. With stuff available in the wards I could probably get total boosts along the lines of +8STR +8DEX +10Acc +3VIT (just off the top of my head).

Now I look at my naked char, who's base stats are already like 200STR 170DEX 160VIT 150Acc (again, off the top of my head). Then I think back at the money I just spent... The bonus I just purchased LOOKS minimal, maybe I shouldn't have bothered at all? As OP pointed out, maybe defense was the only attribute that gives noticeable difference? So instead of new badass gloves I could just wear my crafting mitts in exp instead?

Not every player will come to these forums and read up on how stats stack etc. They look in their in-game equipment screen and realize that the last 200K spent on gear barely gave any significant increase in stats, numerically. Ok, the game still works, but it's weird is all.

[Roaran]

That all sounds good and I'm not gonna challenge you for it, but my point is, consider this:

Say I'm a lvl30 MRD, and I'm looking to buy gear appropriate for my level. With stuff available in the wards I could probably get total boosts along the lines of +8STR +8DEX +10Acc +3VIT (just off the top of my head).

Now I look at my naked char, who's base stats are already like 200STR 170DEX 160VIT 150Acc (again, off the top of my head). Then I think back at the money I just spent... The bonus I just purchased LOOKS minimal, maybe I shouldn't have bothered at all? As OP pointed out, maybe defense was the only attribute that gives noticeable difference? So instead of new badass gloves I could just wear my crafting mitts in exp instead?

Not every player will come to these forums and read up on how stats stack etc. They look in their in-game equipment screen and realize that the last 200K spent on gear barely gave any significant increase in stats, numerically. Ok, the game still works, but it's weird is all.

I think you're right, 5 STR compared to 500 doesn't seem like a lot. Still, if you disregard everything else besides what you add, and the difference in damage, increases in attributes do make a difference. For example, if you add 5 Strength on to 500 Strength, the gain in damage from those 5 strength, is better than the 5 strength from going 200-205. So, it may not at first seem very useful like, oh what's another 5 strength... especially when you're trying to spend millions of gil on materia and multiple meld attempts.

[Akira]

you are also forgetting there are in fact stat caps for example lnc str caps at 290 and pie caps at 280 there has been testing on this in the archer and lancer section in this forum i can post links if people want