Parsers add replayability for casual players

[DPZ2]

The idea people would suddenly start blacklisting you for poor gear is pointless fearmongering. Unless your gear is so bad, you can barely live an AoE.

Not 'poor gear'. Not having gear that is at least 30 iLevels above that required for the content.

Meh, it was a thing. You apparently never lived through those days in WoW.

[Awha]

Not 'poor gear'. Not having gear that is at least 30 iLevels above that required for the content.

Meh, it was a thing. You apparently never lived through those days in WoW.

Though even in WoW if people wish to have their group be 30 ilvls higher what exactly is the issue if that is the desire of the group?

I mean in DF I sometimes already boot first time players in certain dungeons if they are playing crital roles cause I rather not deal with it. Sure it may be rude and a asshole response but end of the day if the group wants a certain standard I do not see why it is such a large issue.

The topic isn't black or white though.

Some people want parsers and don't care how toxic the game becomes after it.

Some people do not want parsers at all and think that adding them will definitely make the game completely toxic the moment they are allowed.

Some people on both sides of the issue realize that there is a risk to adding parsers and what impact it will have on this game's community. Will the moderators be able to prune the toxic people out of the game before they do enough damage to the reputation? Perception is reality and if too many people voice their bad experiences due to parsers, it could give a bad perception, even if those experiences make up a vast minority of runs.

As for me, I'm fine with their current stance with parsers because I'm not sure the benefit of parsers is worth the risk mentioned above given the current position on parsers.

I have mentied all of that in one of my earlier posts though in reality this issue is still rather black and white. Parsing is a tool the perception does not change that. To bar access to a tool because of a poor experiences which from just a seer logical perspective the negative experiences would fall into the minority when weighed against the natural or postive encounters across the board for everyone who has had experience with them. Sure you get some outliers but to make a policy around a perception of negative experience largely boils down to as I said in my other well we cannot confirm or deny the impact so let us just cater to the possible negative outcome.

If people were for the most part being honest majority of the complaints against having an open stance for them largely comes down to feelings though.

It is just a tool, run into an asshole report black list and move on. Why is prevention is so important when it comes to this issue. I mean I get why an open stance is not good for image of the game and does run the risk of alienating people especially those that use this game as the heaven away from WoW.

[Baxcel]

I mean in DF I sometimes already boot first time players in certain dungeons if they are playing crital roles cause I rather not deal with it. Sure it may be rude and a asshole response but end of the day if the group wants a certain standard I do not see why it is such a large issue.

Wow I wish we could downvote or give negative to thr like system because this is toxic as it comes.. I mean I've seen some of the stuff you post here all the time and yeah it's all basically this bad when it comes to insulting and attacking new players.. just because your a speed junkie whose gotta clear a new dungeon in a third of a second dosnt mean you should be able to treat people like that.. go level up some dam trusts and stay outta the roulettes..

[Awha]

Wow I wish we could downvote or give negative to thr like system because this is toxic as it comes.. I mean I've seen some of the stuff you post here all the time and yeah it's all basically this bad when it comes to insulting and attacking new players.. just because your a speed junkie whose gotta clear a new dungeon in a third of a second dosnt mean you should be able to treat people like that.. go level up some dam trusts and stay outta the roulettes..

Though once again how is it toxic to not want to deal with certain things one finds inconvenient? If the vote pass or people set up PF to exlude such people where exactly is the issue? Or is exclusion just toxic in nature and I just did not get the memo?

[NanaWiloh]

Though once again how is it toxic to not want to deal with certain things one finds inconvenient? If the vote pass or people set up PF to exlude such people where exactly is the issue? Or is exclusion just toxic in nature and I just did not get the memo?

You are true glutton for punishment. If you cant bare to deal with players you encounter in Roulette then don't use it. Party finder is for someone like yourself who wants control over who they run with and don't. When comes to the Roulette you are just another player to be used and forgotten about.

[Caurcas]

You are true glutton for punishment. If you cant bare to deal with players you encounter in Roulette then don't use it. Party finder is for someone like yourself who wants control over who they run with and don't. When comes to the Roulette you are just another player to be used and forgotten about.

Roulette is what you make it. You can abandon, kick or simply go with the flow. However, you second point is what is wrong with DF. Only some people get used, most are the user feeding off others. Treating everyone as disposable is another key flaw in the current system. It enables this user behavior, and elevates trash play and enshrines it as the norm. If one ascribes to this, then well the heap is thyself.

[linayar]

Roulette is what you make it.

Indeed, so if you're not having fun because you're too worried what other people are doing and just feeling sorry for yourself thinking you're being used, well, that's just what you make of it.

Other people tend to just have a fine time getting through a roulette with no problem.

[Lanadra]

I mean in DF I sometimes already boot first time players in certain dungeons if they are playing crital roles cause I rather not deal with it. Sure it may be rude and a asshole response but end of the day if the group wants a certain standard I do not see why it is such a large issue.

That's because you have no filter. If anything has become clear to me about you across two topics about parsers/community conduct now.. it's that you have no filter. I wouldn't even say that's a bad thing personally.. some people are like that, my own younger sister is like that.

You will boot people for any reason, first timer, annoying you, for giggles (by your own admission in the other thread) simply because you can, because you think it may pass. Not really considering whether you should.

It's similar to how you seem to regard the matter of 'being honest', you think upfront, blunt honesty is always the way to go. except when you can silent votekick Most other people recognize that no, honesty is not always the best route, sometimes you recognize that 'okay, this is something I'd better not say this way' or 'this I better keep to myself'.

[Awha]

That's because you have no filter. If anything has become clear to me about you across two topics about parsers/community conduct now.. it's that you have no filter. I wouldn't even say that's a bad thing personally.. some people are like that, my own younger sister is like that.

You will boot people for any reason, first timer, annoying you, for giggles (by your own admission in the other thread) simply because you can, because you think it may pass. Not really considering whether you should.

It's similar to how you seem to regard the matter of 'being honest', you think upfront, blunt honesty is always the way to go. except when you can silent votekick Most other people recognize that no, honesty is not always the best route, sometimes you recognize that 'okay, this is something I'd better not say this way' or 'this I better keep to myself'.

To be fair I did state that I wish I could be honest and give the reason for removal but alas given the nature of the ToS as you mentioned yes I have to weigh out my options.

Though generally this has more so to do with me dealing with a private company. Generally my behavior and comments made in public may not make me many allies or friends in the real world but generally my actions cannot also be seen inherently harmful. For the most part intent of the action matters IRL. Sure if I was overly biggoited or wished genuine harm on a person IRL I would face issues.

Though unlike in game despite I think many people wishing this was the case being an asshole is not illegal and even assholes have rights unlike say in a place where the rules are established by their own standards.

Kinda just goes to my point I bare no ill will towards those that feel a certain way about my actions nor do I expect them to want to play along aisle me. If someone rules me in the context of the game for being me who am I to judge even if I do not like the action they are free to make that choice.

In the end truly do believe if people were more upfront and honest with one another we would have less issues since we would know exactly where we stand with people. Though I also know this is not 100% possible and practicable.

Though as mentioned in the other thread and in this one other one why does the reason for the removal inherently matter? It is a choice many in the group have to make. End of the day it appears it largely is either based around self-preservation which I get. If you wish to enjoy the game for years to come my stance is not a great one to take. This much I get and I agree with generally and understand why SE may not feel it is their best interest to make them legal so to speak. Though this view does not frame the action as right or wrong for the most part.

My issue stems from the other side where the action is wrong because it does not like up with their own collective standard.

Since at core isn't holding people to an abratiery standard what I am doing yet it is wrong in my context but right in another? Granted I never been a huge fan of Utilitarianism and that is what this view largely seems based off of.

I have said multiple times going into DF or roulette with a parse running is just asking for punishment. Parsers will not change the enviorment in Roulette or DF, but if people want to torture themselves who I am to stop them.

Sadly my friends also warned me against it. Unfortunately I cannot unseen the horrors. Though I also refuse to willfully deal with said horrors. :P Thankfully SE has provided us with tools that do limit said interactions.

This is useful. Though I'd argue we ought to look at it a few different ways.

I'd agree, for instance, that expecting run times to fall within 20% of their ideal is, in an average party, overly demanding. But that also wouldn't account for context. Is the run taking 20 minutes because the tank is dying when the heal starts to idle? Because one or more DPS cannot, for the life of them, dodge the boss mechanics and ends up at less than half their would-be throughput? Is the run taking 25 minutes because the tank will only pull only one mob at a time? Is it taking that long because a DPS refuses to AoE? Or, is it just a minimally geared party? Given all those varying contexts possible, a fixed expectation would indeed seem arbitrary.

That said, and I apologize if I misread the trajectory of your prior posts and those to whom you were responding, my point was aimed more at quality of play itself, and the timers that convey those standards (e.g., Hard enrages in Extreme and Savage content). Similar to the dungeon clear times, if looked at as some fixed number (even if on X job at Y gear), quality of play would again seem arbitrary, but generally those numbers instead come from somewhere (e.g., some level of familiarity and effort at the minimal or likely gear levels) that connects back to making a form of player engagement pertinent and rewarding.




Citation needed.



I cannot say on principle that even unreasonable levels of exclusion (i.e., those greatly in excess, through gear or prior achievement progress, etc., of what adjusts for risk of some factor of failure, such as skill, latency, etc.) are inherently toxic, but it will often be self-defeating. If fearmongering occludes a place for skill or merit, for instance, such as by requiring so much gear that one is carried through relative performance that would be far below standard, it both

1. forms a very different identity for the game, likely not in the direction most of the people initially attempting to improve their content enjoyment created those parameters for, and
2. will likely create a trench in progression paths for which the devs will have no remedy, since it would be almost entirely a community-formed issue.

That is of course assuming, perhaps hyperbolically, that the practices spread or otherwise standardize. I'll let your own experiences judge whether that is a typical phenomenon. I can only offer that exclusive practices have seemingly tended to exponentiate slightly (or, to "trend") in each of the MMOs I've played thus far (Neverwinter, Ragnorak Online, TERA, Blade & Soul, WoW, and, ofc, XIV).

I apologize if this has seemed to give off a tone that exclusion is inherently bad. Often what we call "exclusion" is in fact just the presence of a greater number of (thereby more finely tuned/crafted) difficulty levels and differences in intended audience. Many of the things we in one breath call fundamentals of good design (such as by letting the player determine to what extent they want to engage in/with X, Y, or Z) can be turned about into derogatory meta-descriptors in the next. But, that can lead into a great many rabbit-holes (especially regarding intrinsic vs. extrinsic reward and consequent tenuous goal intersections), so let me oversimplify for now with a hackneyed, "Your actions have (subtle, longterm) consequences (that may run opposite to the principles your actions followed)."

I do agree. My general issue is with those that frame my actions as inherently toxic because it goes against their own perceived standard that they feel others should be held to.

I have already acknowledged that my stance is not a tenable one for long term longevity of a game if they wish to maintain a certain image or feel so to speak.

Though for the most part my stance has very little to do with outward helping others. Sure I wish I could openly tell hey X your are doing Y when it is possible to do Z for great effect. Here is the data. What they choose do with that data and information is on them, that is as far as my efforts would go to help someone. Overall it is not my place to tell another person how they should play just do not expect me to just sit back and accept it because it is the "proper" thing to do.

I though I understand and generally agree with what you are saying just the core I really do not care what impact my actions have on the game, SE, or others for the most part.

[VelKallor]

As you said it is impossible to compromise when the issue we are trying to form a compromise largely boils down to potential harassment is an issue. The reality is no solution can be made either would water down the metric to the point where it will not matter and or be used as a metric to cause potential harassment.

There already is. Parsers are outside TOS. They are third party software you have been tacitly allowed to use on the strict and clear understanding you do not use it to harass, belittle, humiliate or abuse others.

You say that like it is a bad thing. Wanting to only play with those you can tolerate.

Then form your own groups and stay out of DF. I saw your comment on you kicking new players, new tanks or new healers. I am sincerely hoping that that was a joke, if not, expect sooner or later to be explaining yourself to a GM.

I mean in DF I sometimes already boot first time players in certain dungeons if they are playing crital roles cause I rather not deal with it.

Kicking a person for being a new tank or new healer is out and out griefing.

I though I understand and generally agree with what you are saying just the core I really do not care what impact my actions have on the game, SE, or others for the most part.

Then its about time you did.