Parsers add replayability for casual players

[Shurrikhan]

Just a thought; what if they were to add an official parser or rating system that is only available for solo, open-world content, such as fates?

It would be unuseable in instances and parties to prevent harassment and it would give Lvl 80 players a real reason to re-visit lower level fates (other than being forced to for relic weapon quests).

What are your thoughts on this?

If I felt the risk of uniquely parser-enabled toxicity had more reality behind it than merely rhetoric, that kind of half-measure would have, imo, some reason behind it, but still wouldn't quite seem reasonable.

The idea admits, after all, that people can utilize and would want the kind of information, but then immediately treats them as too weak-willed or temperamental to be entrusted with it in the few places where it'd provide proper contexts. It just... reeks of bait and condescension. Moreover, it seems like it would exacerbate existing irritations whereby an otherwise good design concept would seem to have been purposely sabotaged in being locked away to awkwardly revitalize something it has no business being locked behind.

However, if that half-measure were sold to me as a part of a larger roadmap, testing to ensure quality before releasing it into a wider game, sure, it would then seem reasonable. But otherwise... it just feels hypocritical.

[RushRiviera]

If I felt the risk of uniquely parser-enabled toxicity had more reality behind it than merely rhetoric, that kind of half-measure would have, imo, some reason behind it, but still wouldn't quite seem reasonable.

The idea admits, after all, that people can utilize and would want the kind of information, but then immediately treats them as too weak-willed or temperamental to be entrusted with it in the few places where it'd provide proper contexts. It just... reeks of bait and condescension. Moreover, it seems like it would exacerbate existing irritations whereby an otherwise good design concept would seem to have been purposely sabotaged in being locked away to awkwardly revitalize something it has no business being locked behind.

However, if that half-measure were sold to me as a part of a larger roadmap, testing to ensure quality before releasing it into a wider game, sure, it would then seem reasonable. But otherwise... it just feels hypocritical.

I agree and personally, I would love to see a full official parser as I think it would give an added challenge and make content more fun. However, if harassment in parties is the big concern for most people, we do have to understand that their concerns are just as valid as ours.

The only way forward would be to find a solution that works for everyone, and although a solo, FATE only parser is not entirely what we want, it is at least a step forward that also takes other peoples concerns into consideration.

[Sotaris]

S.E. would lose valuable casuals to 1st Party Parsing. It'll NEVER happen.

Why though? I seen so many poor discussion points on this so I'd be interested why you think this.
Personally I'd be happy with a client side parser, and what I mean by that is only you can see your numbers so no risk of in-game harrasement.

[Rinhi]

Well... not going to sift through this behemoth of a thread to see where the conversation's at.
To put it as simply as possible:

No, just... no.

Parsers appeal to one subset of players only, and it's not "casual" players. It appeals to competitive players ONLY, those who are predominantly interested in some form of progression. As I've seen in other games, these sort of metrics also tend to be quite domineering and tend to overwhelm every other aspect of the game. It will eventually turn the game into a warped and perverse version of what it once was, often driving away the "casual" players as those obsessed with performance and optimization take over. You could say "casual fun" is forced out because optimization becomes an absolute and you're not allowed to goof off anymore because it's not "efficient".

Casual players don't like to measured, they just want to have fun.
Only hardcore players care about improving their measurements.

getting better is fun and seeing that you're getting better is even more fun
playing bad on purpose is the opposite of fun unless you're a troll
sincerely, a casual player

Wait, wait wait...

hate to be that person, but he's saying it because his wife is quite literally the type of player we're talking about who refuses to use certain skills because she doesn't like the look and how everyone who uses DF signs up to carry griefers like her and that we all have to accept it

[DPZ2]

Personally I'd be happy with a client side parser, and what I mean by that is only you can see your numbers so no risk of in-game harrasement.

"Link to a screen-shot of your numbers, or you can't join this party. By the way, you'll need to have your gear inspected to ensure your iLevel is at least 30 above content requirement as well."

Followed by "This is bad. How did someone like you ever make level [60/70/80] !? Blacklisted".

[Based on conversations in WoW, where you could actually use a parser].

[Miracle_Diva]

"Link to a screen-shot of your numbers, or you can't join this party. By the way, you'll need to have your gear inspected to ensure your iLevel is at least 30 above content requirement as well."

Followed by "This is bad. How did someone like you ever make level [60/70/80] !? Blacklisted".

[Based on conversations in WoW, where you could actually use a parser].

If you can't join That party, join another one or make your own with your own rules. What is the problem here?

[Shurrikhan]

I agree and personally, I would love to see a full official parser as I think it would give an added challenge and make content more fun. However, if harassment in parties is the big concern for most people, we do have to understand that their concerns are just as valid as ours.

The only way forward would be to find a solution that works for everyone, and although a solo, FATE only parser is not entirely what we want, it is at least a step forward that also takes other peoples concerns into consideration.

That's a good point, and admittedly we need to see these things not only as they are at one point in time, but also in terms of what consequent pathways they may open thereafter.

Likewise, even if my experience across several MMOs that user parsers have led me to believe that there is very little substance behind those fears (i.e., they don't match the evidence coming from places that actual use parsers), I cannot deny that those fears are substantial (or, that there's very real anxieties and potential points of strong irritation surrounding all this). For that reason, my gut instinct is generally to tread carefully, bringing step by step and in XIV's own way what functions of parsers I feel are more useful to XIV, rather than trying to shove the concept in wholesale.

But I also can't deny the existing anxieties and stressors that information systems--headed by the synecdochal, well-known "parser"--could address. Now, parsers alone establish only a narrow band of play, throughput, but taken alongside the context of even just not dying (which, in a typical XIV fight, laden as they are with vulnerability stacks that makes any cumulative failures fatal, is often indicator enough of decent play) and if largely adjusted for one's gear and buffs granted/received (such as by instead using relative potency contributed), that's... pretty good. But, it doesn't have to be the limit. There's so much more we can do with Halls of the Novice, with SSS, with Guildhests, even with Squadrons and Trusts, especially with that kind of real-time or post-fight contextualized but immediate feedback, that can get people to feel less anxious about trying harder content and reduce tensions where we might otherwise see clear gap between those carrying and carried to points that could upsetting to the prior half and disheartening to the latter. Those benefits need to be looked at too, with at least the same level of vivid imagination, especially if/when the concerns and benefits may intersect, such as in those aforementioned anxieties and irritations.

This kind of stuff shouldn't be an easy path, and its answer won't likely come from principles alone. Social pragmatics need to play a concern, as do game constraints, the XIV flavor, and even questions of where we want to maybe take group content design in the future (e.g., to maybe actually play around with concepts like CC or kiting or focus fire, all of which would be absurdly difficult and/or foreign by today's norms). But I do feel the principles ought to at least lead us in the direction of considering how we might better inform players and utilize affordances similar to and beyond what parsers have done so far rather than forfeiting any of those opportunities on notions of what could go wrong without competing vision of what net positives would likely go right.

[/rant]

[SaberMaxwell]

"Link to a screen-shot of your numbers, or you can't join this party. By the way, you'll need to have your gear inspected to ensure your iLevel is at least 30 above content requirement as well."

Followed by "This is bad. How did someone like you ever make level [60/70/80] !? Blacklisted".

[Based on conversations in WoW, where you could actually use a parser].

Conversation 1 more or less already exists with FFLogs right now, and party finder also has iLevel filter settings so that's a weird thing to bring up; an official release wouldn't change the behavior at all and people dumb enough to say something in-game will get hit by gms hard. Also if someone's gonna blacklist you over something that petty they're doing YOU a favor, you don't have to ever interact with them and you're accomplishing it on THEIR blacklist real estate.

[DPZ2]

If you can't join That party, join another one or make your own with your own rules. What is the problem here?

I was being "polite" ... I'd be banned from the forums to relate actual conversations.

[Miracle_Diva]

I was being "polite" ... I'd be banned from the forums to relate actual conversations.

But I still don't get why does it matter. If you're being harassed in 14, report them, block them and move on. You can't change how some people act (there's probably a big reason why they are like this, but no one actually cares about that stuff) and they pay for bad behavior with getting banned. You're not losing anything from joining another party or making your own.