FFXIV: Limited Job and why it doesn't work

[TheMightyMollusk]

I like BLU as it is, I just wish I had more reason to actually use it.

[MarsAstro]

I don't have the patience to watch 1+ hours of this, so I read the first few pages of your script and I think I've seen all I need to see.

Your arguments fall incredibly flat to me. With most of your issues, my immediate response is simply: "Why is that a problem, though?". The only justification you seem to be giving for most of your issues is that BLU isn't up to par when you compare it to what other jobs can do. But why on earth would you compare it to normal jobs, when it's not at all trying to be like them? It's its own separate content trying to do something different and its own thing, just like Gold Saucer is, and just like what Island Sanctuaries will be. You're expecting Limited Jobs to be something they aren't, something they're not trying to be.

If you don't enjoy the gameplay, that's totally fine, but you're seemingly claiming it's inherently flawed and can never work in an MMO solely because it isn't similar to, or tied to, the main gameplay loop. You're not really arguing that BLU and Limited Jobs don't work, what you're actually arguing is that BLU and Limited Jobs aren't like normal jobs and you don't like that. If you treat it like a normal job, of course you'll be disappointed, because it's not a normal job. I also saw you mention replayability and rewards, but again, this is not the main gameplay loop. It doesn't need to be highly replayable or rewarding, it's totally fine for it to be a finite thing that you play for fun and then put away until new content comes out.

Personally, I like BLU and I hope they make more limited jobs. Why? Because I like collecting things and completing logs in video games, which is clearly what BLU is supposed to be about. It's a mini-game about spell collection and log-completion, and it has some one-time currency rewards as an added incentive as you complete those logs. It's also great for when you need to grind old FATEs for relics, as it's powerful, flexible and syncing doesn't affect its kit.

If you don't like BLU, that's totally fine. You don't have to like this content, you don't have to like all the content in this game. I'm sure you're not spending very much time with Mahjong or Lords of Vermillion either. Different strokes for different folks. As this is an MMORPG you're just going to have to be fine with the game having a wide variety of content that doesn't necessarily all appeal to you.

[Fland]

Currently you have:

Alternating nightbloom and SoT on 1 min cycles
30s eruption usage+ rose of destruction (or whatever it is)
60s jkick/quasar+sparkstrike + devour+ off guard
90s glass dance+ magic hammer + triple trident combo
120s phantom flurry + ravana ability (cant remember the name) + bristle + matra magic.

That rotation without moon flute is about as in depth as a smn rotation (and ive probably forgotten something), so it really doesnt need as much if anything to be a normal job

I'm sorry but I don't really see anything depth or unique about what you've listed. They're just OGCDs weaved in turn as they come off CDs (why would you weave them in with those spells anyway? the only one that can be used to weave without swift or clipping is Devour).

And how exactly would you line up glass dance, magic hammer, and triple trident combo when TT combo alone take 3 GCDs? Same with PF+supra+matra which also take 3 GCDs (4 with bristle).

Some of those OGCDs and spells would also be crammed into opener and would not line up with the ones you paired them with.

[MyakotApelsia]

That is an exceptionally terrible idea. Low level content is designed around not having higher level abilities available. I for one am super cool with not needing my full rotation on level 24 trash mobs that die in 6 seconds.

I never said it needs to be default thing. We have option that lets us force only highest dungeons when we are premade, same thing would apply here. If you are premade or undersized, you can go down without losing your skills, maybe with exp penalty applied like when you unsync.

And also, there are more things that are just dungeons in the game. There are people that want to experience coils synced surprisingly, but nobody wants to actually do it, part of which is because you have like half of your abilities.

[ReiMakoto]

Currently you have:

Alternating nightbloom and SoT on 1 min cycles
30s eruption usage+ rose of destruction (or whatever it is)
60s jkick/quasar+sparkstrike + devour+ off guard
90s glass dance+ magic hammer + triple trident combo
120s phantom flurry + ravana ability (cant remember the name) + bristle + matra magic.

That rotation without moon flute is about as in depth as a smn rotation (and ive probably forgotten something), so it really doesnt need as much if anything to be a normal job

I'm sorry but I don't really see anything depth or unique about what you've listed. They're just OGCDs weaved in turn as they come off CDs.

And how exactly would you line up glass dance, magic hammer, and triple trident combo when TT combo alone take 3 GCDs? Same with PF+supra+matra which also take 3 GCDs (4 with bristle).

Some of those OGCDs and spells would also be crammed into opener and would not line up with the ones you paired them with.

The idea is pairing them all of into a coherent opener then keeping them ticker over, not exactly using them together in the exact sequence I listed, just grouping them together on cooldowns. Actually useing them together requires alignment and gcd planning as only half of those ive listed are ogcds as youve reductively listed them. Again explain how this is less complicated than a blm or smn rotation. Both have dot management, both have ogcd drift and alignment issues, both have gcd drift and uptime management to maximise burst windows (moreso on blu as drifting your burst causes it to fall out your mf window which makes large dps losses). I fail to see how blues current dps rotation is less complex than at least a level 70 equivalent dps rotation of rdm smn or blm. Please explain to differ

[Fland]

It's not about having it as complex as SMN or BLM. It doesn't matter whether regular BLU would be less or more complex than SMN as long as it's unique and different.

We already have SMN with DOT management + burst windows, so if BLU is also like that then it'd be similar and people will complain. Yes you could argue that DOT management + burst windows can come up in different ways, but even now people are complaining how WAR is too similar with DRK even though their burst window come up in different way.

[Mariel_Crystallie]

snip

The main problem is SE just wasting the potential of BLU returning as a good job like the other current jobs. We do enjoy the BLU gameplay , but right now what we can do with the current BLU? getting level 70 new spells , clearing 1 NEW STAGE carnival , new savage achievement and gains title only. then what? start ABUSING old FATEs that cause some problem on the recent re-run yokai event? showing off to new sprout player "I can instant kill the FATE boss with this"?

I understand that Pandemic causing all of the delay , but looking at BLU right now even after all of the delay it's feels getting lazy and lazier on level 70 release. All things like major content on SB you can't do it ( Heavens on High , Eureka & Ultimates ). Stop thinking about other Limited Jobs please , its just causing more stress & wasting resource into the dev teams while all of this "Limited Job" content only appear as filler that useless on new content (because currently as you said BLU is only useful doing all the OLD things) and have 0 replay ability for major end-content.

Also I think TS never say he didn't like the BLU , or else how come he end up with 1 hours video and have a segment about how to rebalance BLU skills that probably works on his version. I think he personally really love BLU more than me lol. Try to read all of his script maybe you will understand what he means more/

[AC9Breaker]

I don't have the patience to watch 1+ hours of this, so I read the first few pages of your script and I think I've seen all I need to see.

Your arguments fall incredibly flat to me. With most of your issues, my immediate response is simply: "Why is that a problem, though?". The only justification you seem to be giving for most of your issues is that BLU isn't up to par when you compare it to what other jobs can do. But why on earth would you compare it to normal jobs, when it's not at all trying to be like them? It's its own separate content trying to do something different and its own thing, just like Gold Saucer is, and just like what Island Sanctuaries will be. You're expecting Limited Jobs to be something they aren't, something they're not trying to be.

If you don't enjoy the gameplay, that's totally fine, but you're seemingly claiming it's inherently flawed and can never work in an MMO solely because it isn't similar to, or tied to, the main gameplay loop. You're not really arguing that BLU and Limited Jobs don't work, what you're actually arguing is that BLU and Limited Jobs aren't like normal jobs and you don't like that. If you treat it like a normal job, of course you'll be disappointed, because it's not a normal job. I also saw you mention replayability and rewards, but again, this is not the main gameplay loop. It doesn't need to be highly replayable or rewarding, it's totally fine for it to be a finite thing that you play for fun and then put away until new content comes out.

Personally, I like BLU and I hope they make more limited jobs. Why? Because I like collecting things and completing logs in video games, which is clearly what BLU is supposed to be about. It's a mini-game about spell collection and log-completion, and it has some one-time currency rewards as an added incentive as you complete those logs. It's also great for when you need to grind old FATEs for relics, as it's powerful, flexible and syncing doesn't affect its kit.

If you don't like BLU, that's totally fine. You don't have to like this content, you don't have to like all the content in this game. I'm sure you're not spending very much time with Mahjong or Lords of Vermillion either. Different strokes for different folks. As this is an MMORPG you're just going to have to be fine with the game having a wide variety of content that doesn't necessarily all appeal to you.

I like what this person said so I'm gonna quote for emphasis.

[Radacci]

People always compare it to FFXI version, but this isn't XI version - what worked there, doesn't work here, that's why they didn't want to add it in the first place. But they have this tendency to do everything that players shout for, so we got BLU....not quite as they wanted it, because it can't fit into the role system, without ruining it. I don't think they have any intention of adding more limited jobs, just BLU, because it doesn't fit into the system, so it has its own system. If it could fit in, they would already done that.
It's troublesome to balance one new job, but BLU with its huge pile of skills, would be impossible to balance for normal content, without it being OP or UP, or just weird and gimmicky - what's this person even supposed to do??

[Shougun]

People always compare it to FFXI version, but this isn't XI version - what worked there, doesn't work here, that's why they didn't want to add it in the first place. But they have this tendency to do everything that players shout for, so we got BLU....not quite as they wanted it, because it can't fit into the role system, without ruining it. I don't think they have any intention of adding more limited jobs, just BLU, because it doesn't fit into the system, so it has its own system. If it could fit in, they would already done that.
It's troublesome to balance one new job, but BLU with its huge pile of skills, would be impossible to balance for normal content, without it being OP or UP, or just weird and gimmicky - what's this person even supposed to do??

The recent abilities are much better, imo, than the FFXI version, some of the 50 era skills had flecks of that but I was overall rather disappointed with those skills, 60-70 I think should represent the entire job (and skills that are like the 60-70 are the ones I'd say are consistently shining better than FFXI's). One of the things though that might have been quite fun to preserve, maybe not 1:1, but the passive sort of system could have made some interesting opportunities to mix up the gameplay loops. I think also referencing Diablo 3 and it's passive system (consuming legendary items to equip them later, and also how that system can clearly mix with your gameplay choices and evolve your style as you go along). Could have added an extra wild element to blue mage. Of course balancing such a concept to PF may have been difficult though.. but I think at least in a solo situation it could be very fun. I can imagine wild effects like self inflected lich status, or a passive every other spell's cast time is cut down by 2s (blue mage fast cast).

I do want to note though that people mention big book of spells like that's a blue mage requirement but in the games where blue mages had big books often other jobs, usually multiple, had the same circumstance. Similarly many other jobs also had gimmicky spells, like white mage reflect or casting raise on the dead. Blue mage was often wacky due to the pacing of their gimmicks and the large spread of seemingly unrelated effects with most skills having an effect beyond 'element + damage' (due to them taking monster skills). That isn't to say some people can't really like the big list or gimmicks, but if a white mage or black mage, or heck summoner lol, can become normal (famous for multiple gimmick spells and huge lists) then so too I would say it is fair that Blue Mage could have well been "blue mage" and yet also a normal job. Since the elements people reference that can't be balanced are not really exclusive to blue mage. That isn't also to say one can't relish the gimmicks instead, again, by being limited, though I think both limited and normal.. would have been nice, just that.. I would full stop argue that the idea of big list or broken spells is not specifically a blue mage thing and has been a feature in many jobs for different situations (and so you don't have to represent those concepts in order to have the job be well represented).

Personally a big list can be neat, but given, at least the 1-50 skills, and maybe only a few of the 60-70 skills, are largely non-useful . . . I would say it's not taking great advantage of that, at least for the moment. I'd love for that to be wrong (like hope it changes)- I think if they remixed their 1-50 to be consistently more interesting at the time of attaining and maintain as much as possible without doing big brain rocket to the moon calculous into the future as well. Ideally skills do three things: are neat to try right away / aka fun to use, have a potential impact of value beyond just fun to use, and then will again later when viewed in a large scope of things (aka, fun right away, useful value right away, useful value when considered in context with other abilities but that doesn't have to happen right away- viewing games like Hades, Diablo 3, or many other Rogue-like/lite games that often have combos appear to skills yet those skills had already been useful from the get go). The first release skills I feel regularly fail the majority if not all three criteria I feel would be ideal (for example some skills were useless right away, not fun to 'use', and never became useful later, some skills useful right away but not fun to use), though later added skills pass and hit all three 'yes' more often. One idea that I saw that could have made it exciting even if a skill was 'meh' was as you learn skills your power level increased, which would encourage doing a complete collection and help you do some more difficult fights if you needed (helps the filler skills, though ideally there are no filler skills lol).