Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Jadedsins]

Sure, but when people like that get removed without a reason then hopefully they do not act too surprised it happened.

Correct! If other players in the group pick to remove you. Well in the right to do so. It works both ways, and the game sets up all the tools for it to happen. It just seems like most of the time the community leans toward being more understanding and people tend to defend players from being called out.

[Awha]

Correct! If other players in the group pick to remove you. Well in the right to do so. It works both ways, and the game sets up all the tools for it to happen. It just seems like most of the time the community leans toward being more understanding and people tend to defend players from being called out.

Which baffles me. I get the idea behind wanting to give people the benefit of the doubt but I do not think removing people should be vilified as much as it is.

[Krotoan]

Which baffles me. I get the idea behind wanting to give people the benefit of the doubt but I do not think removing people should be vilified as much as it is.

People generally don't have a problem with kicking someone or getting kicked if it's agreed by the majority that they are not only a detriment but not worth any time investment at all or minor inconvenience.

"I don't use jobstones" "ok well that's just going to make this take way more time than any of us are willing to invest" (in so many words, probably something more like "I don't wanna" "k well.. bye".)

You however have presented playing off others tendencies and kicking at relatively negligible issues. Combining your particular take into what many might consider an abuse of the system for exceedingly selfish reasons. There's a large difference in many peoples minds between mutually agreeing to kick someone who is an obvious detriment to all and initiating a kick on minor things that bother you and taking advantage of the fact your friends in the party will go along with it as well as randoms who don't actually pay attention and either accidentally or dismissively agree to kick. Especially on a "contract" such as a DF party where you agreed to "help" others for a reward and are then cherry picking who you want to help.

[Awha]

People generally don't have a problem with kicking someone or getting kicked if it's agreed by the majority that they are not only a detriment but not worth any time investment at all or minor inconvenience.

"I don't use jobstones" "ok well that's just going to make this take way more time than any of us are willing to invest" (in so many words, probably something more like "I don't wanna" "k well.. bye".)

You however have presented playing off others tendencies and kicking at relatively negligible issues. Combining your particular take into what many might consider an abuse of the system for exceedingly selfish reasons. There's a large difference in many peoples minds between mutually agreeing to kick someone who is an obvious detriment to all and initiating a kick on minor things that bother you and taking advantage of the fact your friends in the party will go along with it as well as randoms who don't actually pay attention and either accidentally or dismissively agree to kick. Especially on a "contract" such as a DF party where you agreed to "help" others for a reward and are then cherry picking who you want to help.

The thing what one considers negligible may not be to another. As stated my stance is fairly simple if the majority of those able to vote to remove the player then the vote is valid. The reason behind it is moot in my opinion because the reason becomes a subjective standard. Though our vote kick system is far from perfect and some changes could be made but within the current system that is the only objective metric we have.

I get people being agaisnt my reasoning for the kick, and they can view me as an villain or an ass. Though I do not think the action itself is wrong or should be viewed as such. I do think it should be encouraged.

The other thing I am not a huge fan of implicit contracts. Which is what end stance boils down to regarding DF is an agreement to help others. Granted I have never read the text for the duty finder so it could not be implicit and just ignorance on my part. Though that creates other issues I have that would further derail the thread.

[Krotoan]

The thing what one considers negligible may not be to another. As stated my stance is fairly simple if the majority of those able to vote to remove the player then the vote is valid. The reason behind it is moot in my opinion because the reason becomes a subjective standard. Though our vote kick system is far from perfect and some changes could be made but within the current system that is the only objective metric we have.

Yet I would hazard a large amount of the community seems to see your standard of "anything I don't like" as being incredibly unfair, especially while leveraging other "abuses" of the system like I mentioned.

I get people being agaisnt my reasoning for the kick, and they can view me as an villain or an ass. Though I do not think the action itself is wrong or should be viewed as such. I do think it should be encouraged.

The action itself is built into the game. It's not wrong. The reasoning behind it and how it's enacted being the important part. Encouraging silent votekicking perpetuates confusion and offers NO opportunity for growth.

The other thing I am not a huge fan of implicit contracts. Which is what end stance boils down to regarding DF is an agreement to help others. Granted I have never read the text for the duty finder so it could not be implicit and just ignorance on my part. Though that creates other issues I have that would further derail the thread.

Why does DF roulette exist? Why do people need to be ENCOURAGED to use it and complete whatever duty they get? Why is there a punishment for leaving once it's started? Why is the duty "Masked" during the acceptance popup?
answer those questions and you will understand what implicit contract you're entering by clicking "OK".

[Awha]

Yet I would hazard a large amount of the community seems to see your standard of "anything I don't like" as being incredibly unfair, especially while leveraging other "abuses" of the system like I mentioned.


The action itself is built into the game. It's not wrong. The reasoning behind it and how it's enacted being the important part. Encouraging silent votekicking perpetuates confusion and offers NO opportunity for growth.





Why does DF roulette exist? Why do people need to be ENCOURAGED to use it and complete whatever duty they get? Why is there a punishment for leaving once it's started? Why is the duty "Masked" during the acceptance popup?
answer those questions and you will understand what implicit contract you're entering by clicking "OK".

Thing is I do not care that much for subjective standards such as fair or unfair. Since that will vary from person to person and in the grand scheme not of any use when it comes to my own enjoyment calculus.

Also yes the action is built into the game, and if reasoning is allowed either through inaction or enforcement or just accepted by those who control the system then once again the reasoning bares little importance within the system as a whole. As mentioned one can disagree with my use of the tool but the framing of trying to put ones own standards as a reason for why one should not do it at the very least appears to try and frame the action as inappropriate as a truth because the community at large disagrees.

[Krotoan]

Thing is I do not care that much for subjective standards such as fair or unfair. Since that will vary from person to person and in the grand scheme not of any use when it comes to my own enjoyment calculus.

As you have said. I'm just trying to offer perspective from those who do. Fair and unfair are important to someone who experiences empathy.

Also yes the action is built into the game, and if reasoning is allowed either through inaction or enforcement or just accepted by those who control the system then once again the reasoning bares little importance within the system as a whole. As mentioned one can disagree with my use of the tool but the framing of trying to put ones own standards as a reason for why one should not do it at the very least appears to try and frame the action as inappropriate as a truth because the community at large disagrees.

Societal norms come about because of general consensus. In the FFXIV society you are an uncommon case. If everyone played and acted at your standard the game would be far more hostile to new players, less profitable as it would be casual unfriendly, and possibly would have crashed and burned (or at least been abandoned to obscurity) long ago.

So my opinion is that while you can survive and play while being of your particular stance, you are not "healthy" for the growth of this game and it's community and will be scorned for your lack of consideration of others.

Again, these things are important to most people.


In all honesty I have my doubts as to your actually holding the position you defend as it is, as I've put forward before, close to sociopathy, and true detachment from any empathy is rare for the human condition. Especially if you are interested in something like a JRPG where we are introduced to and expected to care about characters that aren't us. Yes you can play this game without paying any attention to that, but FFXIV does tend to lean heavily on that aspect.

[MyakotApelsia]

You however have presented playing off others tendencies and kicking at relatively negligible issues

I mean, thats ToS for you. You are allowed to kick for "Different playstyle" and gms will be on your side when that happens. Kinda expected for someone to do that in the game.

[Jojoya]

I mean, thats ToS for you. You are allowed to kick for "Different playstyle" and gms will be on your side when that happens. Kinda expected for someone to do that in the game.

But you also have to get half of the rest of the party to agree with you that it's reasonable to kick the player. That can be much harder to do.

The majority of kicks I see are for AFKs/extended DCs. It's very rare that I see anyone getting kicked for "being bad at the game" unless they're outright ignoring the rest of the group and causing problems as a result.

[MyakotApelsia]

But you also have to get half of the rest of the party to agree with you that it's reasonable to kick the player. That can be much harder to do.

The majority of kicks I see are for AFKs/extended DCs. It's very rare that I see anyone getting kicked for "being bad at the game" unless they're outright ignoring the rest of the group and causing problems as a result.

It isnt hard in 4mans, you need 1 person to accept and you win. And its highly possible if person is performing badly. From my experience doing dungeons to level everything to 80, i wouldn't call kicks for that rare, but not usual either.