Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Caurcas]

It's not about feeling superior, as I want all of us to be equal. It's about grinding disappointment and the feeling of being used. You can only carry so much weight on your shoulders till you start to break.

[LaughingBanana]

You can only carry so much weight on your shoulders till you start to break.

I'm sorry, but this one sentence actually made me chuckle.

It's so heavy, huh, the burden of carrying all the unskilled players in FFXIV on your shoulders--what a tragic, unsung hero you really are, carrying the weight of the world like that *cue Nier music*

That being said:

I don't know what else to say however, it feels like all of us here are just talking in an endless circle. In absence of actual things done by the dev team to address the issue (if there is even an actual issue or if the dev team actually consider it an issue) however, and how much of an abstract gesture it is screaming at the "community" about how "everyone" should always be on top of their game every single time during a DF or anything else (like you can say "Please, guys, be as good as me or I am gonna keep suffering!" and everyone would respond in unison "Okay sure, we'll do it for you, we love you!", like you can just police millions of people and have them behave/perform the way exactly that you want all the time), I guess the best advice I can give is just, well:

Take it easy. And be nice to other people when playing the game.

That is all.

[Nethereal]

I think a lot of this is because people like to feel superior. Bemoaning how they are the only skilled player in a sea of players who just aren't as good as they are, is just a way to boost their own ego and self-esteem.

I can't think of any other reason that you would care that much about encountering people who aren't "performing" in a random duty.

In a world where performing = faster = less time wasted = more time for me to do other things.

There are a few reasons people care about random people who aren't performing(outside the goodness of their heart, bless their soul) but the main thing is that it's a time thing.
In terms of pf you can actually join parties and kind of have a grasp on how much time you're going to spend doing something and how many times you can do it so it's kind of irrelevant.

In terms of roulette though where it's totally random a large fault actually lies in the rewards being given. In most roulettes the reward fits the tax, you generally know how long something is going to take and if you can actually succeed in doing it.
Some roulettes however do not have a suitable reward for the tax at hand.
For instance getting "The Praetorium" from mentor roulette, the dungeon has 30 minutes of cutscenes and 20 minutes of combat and I'm just here for the clear and the leavers punishment is 30 minutes...

I think we can safely say for the most part the majority of players have at least reached level 80 on one job and aren't totally new/fresh and we can also assume that a majority of those people who have level 80 jobs aren't running roulettes on their level 80 job for the content but the reward from the roulette. Now lets say you're doing a roulette for the rewards and you get into a dungeon and these 3 other random factors(scrubs/newbs) are doing some if maybe 1 of the following:

• dying to dumb shit
• not holding aggro
• not doing AoEs(if they have any)
• breaking their combos

Well there goes anywhere between 3-10 minutes of my life because you can't do basic content.
Now if it's really bad like for instance Titania normal mode(once joined a 40 minutes in progress) the one you do for msq you can waste anywhere from 10 minutes to the full duration of the trial with nothing to show for it and all you wanted was the roulette reward which is basically nothing because trials/raids should only take anywhere between 10-20 minutes.

Now this doesn't all sound bad yet I mean it's only happened once and you're playing a game to waste your time anyway so what's the big deal? It adds up. Eventually you'll have wasted so much total time you'll have enough time to have done that dungeon twice over. Now it's normal to waste time in a game in fact that's the purpose but it's the pointlessness of the time wasted that gets people.
To most people a roulette is just a chore, something you do daily for the rewards, they don't care if you're new or don't understand how to play your class, or generally just bad. To them you're in the way of them finishing their roulette, you're in the way of their schedule, their free time and for what? Because you don't know how to do simple mechanics? Because you're bad? In team games where you're only as strong as your weakest link you really shouldn't force/entice one factor to play with another factor.

All in all only being able to earn tomes reasonably through roulettes(using 3rd party programs is not as convenient as duty finder) a daily mechanic that forces you to group up with other players is bound to have the same problems presented with all things related to the human condition. For most I would say the moment you no longer need what the roulette is offering is the moment you never touch it again, realistically you won't be able to change the human condition so if you want to mitigate bm in roulettes you need to stop making it so people who only go into them for rewards do them, which they won't because that would kill the content, and the human condition will never change so I guess we're just at a impasse.

I don't know how many people think like this but if we were to generalize it all it would look something like this: Random people who waste an excessive amount of your time are the enemy of your enjoyment.

Edit: Honestly when it comes to roulette people should be rewarded for their personal performance not their participation. It would encourage players to get better and nobody would care if you took a little longer.

[Tactical]

how much of an abstract gesture it is screaming at the "community" about how "everyone" should always be on top of their game every single time during a DF or anything else

You know, I've always wondered: What parts of the playerbase DOES interact with the forums?
Is it primarily the vocal minority of entitled people who believe that all of their habits formed from years of playing games are or should be the norm? Is it primarily trolls who wish to escape accountability by making actions in bad faith?
The more people dismiss the notion that perhaps others do not pick up on or grasp concepts as quickly or as easily as they do, that people might not read every little bit of information presented to them*, the more I think to myself, "Gee, this sure sounds increasingly more and more like ableism!"
I mean, aside from the explicit instances of it in this very thread, of course.

*Consider the Ability "Sheltron", obtainable at Paladin Level 35 as of the time of writing/editing. Its text states that it "blocks incoming attack". The player, unless they have been looking intently at the damage pop-ups on them and see that they have blocked an attack, will not know automatically how much damage that would mitigate (roughly 20%). They might also mistakenly assume that Sheltron only blocks one instance of damage.
There are also other little things that could stand to have a little more clarification added, like Dream Within a Dream (Ninja 56) or basically any DoT effect, really, but Sheltron in particular stood out to me.
In terms of mechanical transparency, there certainly are, at least, a few things that Square Enix COULD do- As it stands, Hall of the Novice encourages single pulls (which is reasonable, as that has minimal odds of failure) and doesn't mention AoEing as an option, let alone the enemy count breakpoint at which you should be using them. People are loathe to do math, you see, and so might not conclude that the 140 Potency of Gravity (Astrologian 45) would apply against two different enemies for a total effective potency of 280, or even higher than that, should there be more enemies- Far more than even Malefic III's Potency of 210 (Astrologian 64).
Indeed, some might not understand the gravity of AoEs, and that is, in some sense, not the end of the world- They need only be pointed to the right direction.

[Rinhi]

If I told you there was a 5 armed blue alien in my kitchen that loves to make spaghetti but turns invisible when anyone but me looks at it would you debate me on it or would you just roll your eyes and walk away?

i'd be curious to see said alien ngl

[Kaoru_Nagisa]

I think a lot of this is because people like to feel superior. Bemoaning how they are the only skilled player in a sea of players who just aren't as good as they are, is just a way to boost their own ego and self-esteem.

I can't think of any other reason that you would care that much about encountering people who aren't "performing" in a random duty.

Or it's the fact this is a team-based game and people should not have to be forced to drag lazy or entitled players who refuse to improve or learn the basics of their job, through content said player otherwise could not clear due to how they adamantly stomp their feet at the notion of playing properly.

I give advice where I can, as politely as I can - especially to newbies. But there is an undeniable culture of enabling and selfishness, when most of my attempts to advise people about a class I know well and play well is met with "shut up, I don't care". Or on the extreme end, griefing in the form of no longer healing, or not using AoEs to keep mob aggro so they can get me killed, etc.

I have rarely met an 'elite' player who was as outwardly toxic and aggressive as most of the casualists I run into.

Note: casualist. Not casual.

There is a clear difference - as I myself could be considered casual. I don't raid anymore and don't have the time nor energy to devote to a static right now, I only get a few hours a day to play at best outside of the weekends. Sometimes I won't even play because I'm exhausted from work and would prefer to not have to deal with the rancid community of this game on top of it while trying to do content I otherwise find very fun.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I'm sorry, but this one sentence actually made me chuckle.

It's so heavy, huh, the burden of carrying all the unskilled players in FFXIV on your shoulders--what a tragic, unsung hero you really are, carrying the weight of the world like that *cue Nier music*

That being said:

I don't know what else to say however, it feels like all of us here are just talking in an endless circle. In absence of actual things done by the dev team to address the issue (if there is even an actual issue or if the dev team actually consider it an issue) however, and how much of an abstract gesture it is screaming at the "community" about how "everyone" should always be on top of their game every single time during a DF or anything else (like you can say "Please, guys, be as good as me or I am gonna keep suffering!" and everyone would respond in unison "Okay sure, we'll do it for you, we love you!", like you can just police millions of people and have them behave/perform the way exactly that you want all the time), I guess the best advice I can give is just, well:

Take it easy. And be nice to other people when playing the game.

That is all.

I’m sorry but this one paragraph made me chuckle. No one is expecting people to be at the top of their game. Since when is wanting people to know their rotation and know to aoe properly being at the top of their game? You say “take it easy and be nice to people playing that game.” Yeah that goes both ways. Be nice and take 10 mins to learn your job and know when to gear yourself properly. Tired of the double standard of people hiding behind the “be nice stop being mean” to enable this behavior. It’s pretty clear you don’t really know what you’re talking about when you have to resort to some snarky comment every single time to respond. We’re asking for basic work put in to make the multiplayer experience better for everyone. Obviously no, unless the devs do something things can’t really change. But at least by bringing it up maybe it’ll give a kick in the heads to some of the select few that are delusional enough to be enabling their behavior constantly and being highly sensitive to any form of criticism of the community.

[SturmChurro]

Obviously no, unless the devs do something things can’t really change. But at least by bringing it up maybe it’ll give a kick in the heads to some of the select few that are delusional enough to be enabling their behavior constantly and being highly sensitive to any form of criticism of the community.

Unfortunately, I don't think the devs are headed in that direction, in fact the opposite. They referenced the amount of "casual" players joining the game in that recent interview, and are trying to make more content that would work for them. Like those 48-man fights where players can be carried. Literally, it was the reason cited.. This community is so entrenched in that way of thinking that we are really just howling at the moon. Nobody is changing minds here.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Unfortunately, I don't think the devs are headed in that direction, in fact the opposite. They referenced the amount of "casual" players joining the game in that recent interview, and are trying to make more content that would work for them. Like those 48-man fights where players can be carried. Literally, it was the reason cited.. This community is so entrenched in that way of thinking that we are really just howling at the moon. Nobody is changing minds here.

Yeah it’s unfortunate. Like i said before the two places they do gather info from(twitter and reddit) are the ones more vocally the casual playerbase. It’s why apparently dungeons are going to get streamlined more than they already are which is really sad. Seems like instead of trying to teach players they’re just pandering and coddling them. In a business sense i get it, it makes more money. It just sucks to see them go down that route especially when they can’t even fund their own game :/

[Penthea]

It's not about feeling superior, as I want all of us to be equal. It's about grinding disappointment and the feeling of being used. You can only carry so much weight on your shoulders till you start to break.

My heart bleeds for you. How horrible it must feel to know you are better than others.

Really though we're never NEVER NEVER all going to be equal. It's an impossible dream. Even if everyone magically put in equal effort there will never be equal results. People learn things at different rates, not everyone is good at the same thing, your best is someone else's worst, someone else's best is your worst, some people are easily distracted, others are not...I could go on for a very long time.

Seriously you have to accept the fact that different people...are going to be different people. It's fine to get annoyed if someone is underperforming but to even try to advocate for everyone to be equal is futile.

Also I seriously doubt your back is broken from carrying everyone in DF, come on. I don't believe that for a second. If you really think this is true then you're essentially saying that the average skill level on your data centre is significantly lower than EU. Is this the image you really want to push? Really?