Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Nethereal]

those wanting to force their opinions on how the game "should" be played down other players' throats.

There's definitely a right and a wrong way to convey your intentions to someone but if there's a dps check in the content you're doing there is a 'way' you 'should' be playing and no amount of coddling and hiding behind "you don't pay my sub" is going to stop that reality until hard dps checks are completely removed or people start playing at an average level.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I should also note too the fact that you can argue there’s a mini dps check in dungeons because if mobs aren’t dying fast enough, tanks are gonna run out of cd’s and healers out of mana. Had that happen one too many times which made it apparent the dps weren’t doing their jobs lol.Most notably the pulls in dohn mheg and holminster.

[Alxyzntlct]

There's definitely a right and a wrong way to convey your intentions to someone but if there's a dps check in the content you're doing there is a 'way' you 'should' be playing and no amount of coddling and hiding behind "you don't pay my sub" is going to stop that reality until hard dps checks are completely removed or people start playing at an average level.

Well, yes, I do agree that the game ultimately boils down to math and the only way to complete said challenges is to fulfill that math. I've never spoken otherwise. How that math gets fulfilled can be subjective, thus the “should” in my comment, but that’s ultimately not the critical point.

Also, please note that I tried to acknowledge part of that in the initial portion of my earlier comment (which for some reason wasn’t included in the quote):

In my experience, toxicity can be present on both fronts, both from folks who want to hide from their mistakes and those wanting to force their opinions on how the game "should" be played down other players' throats.

- You did notice how I was trying to show understanding of both sides of the debate there, right?

The first problem at hand that a lot of folks keep coming back to is how players communicate with each other. That a little extra time and effort to help people is in general better for everyone and better for the game, and that openly allowing folks to vomit vitriol on others under the guise of “helping” isn’t a good process.

Again, no one is saying that you can’t provide feedback and advice to other players. It’s actually encouraged to provide appropriate feedback. And if those players aren’t capable or don’t want to, then it makes perfect sense to remove them.

It’s sounding more and more like a lot of people recognize this, but ultimately don’t want to have to deal with people at all. That the game system should be updated in such a way that protects “elite” players from “difficult” players instead of allowing “difficult” players into endgame content. That’s the most common argument I’ve seen, and to me feels like the worst way to go (Wildstar attempted to cater only to elite endgame players and we all saw how well that went).

What I haven’t seen is much of are suggestions from folks on how the system can be updated to better prepare players for endgame content. So rather than continuing the pointless cycle or re-iterating the same points ad nauseam, how would you all prefer to see the game updated to better educate and help players hit that “average” benchmark?

[Nethereal]

*snip*

I read your post and I agree that both extreme ends are "toxic" but I wanted to highlight specifically that the players that don't strive to improve carry more fault than any other parties in such situations and if you have external issues that prevent you from improving it's your responsibility to take in account for such factors. Whether it be studying more or writing stuff down on sticky notes.

One of my biggest peeves is when someone gives me an excuse like "I have kids and a household to take care of and no time to play this game all day" I really don't care that's your problem if you don't have the will, time, or resources available to you in your personal life that's on you to respect the situation you've been placed in. People who disrespect the situation they've been placed in are people who buy ultimate clears and parses.

I would love to update hall of novice and create other similar programs that would teach, allow and encourage personal growth on all fronts not just raid content but its been made very clear by Yoshi (and games in general) that his intentions are to be as inclusive as possible at the expense of everything but the bottom line. There are different problems with different regions as well and developers don't have that much time to actually play their own game so I don't believe such changes would ever happen and should they be planned they would be at the bottom of the list.

At the same time though the ToS has been updated in such a way that you can get a permanent strike to your account for anything as long as they feel like it. There are many laws and rules that exist but aren't enforced and are simply there to get people in trouble when said enforcers want to do such, twitter and youtube are an excellent example of this as they will never tell you what rules you've broken or when you've broken them but simply that you have broken them.
In an individual case such as a report to a gm it makes sense that you wouldn't be told so that the person reporting you could be protected from possible further issues but on a large scale we've shifted as a society from wanting to better the whole to protecting the majority from the minority.

Under such rules there really isn't anything you can do as an individual other than keep your head down and your mouth shut.

[KizuyaKatogami]

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What I haven’t seen is much of are suggestions from folks on how the system can be updated to better prepare players for endgame content. So rather than continuing the pointless cycle or re-iterating the same points ad nauseam, how would you all prefer to see the game updated to better educate and help players hit that “average” benchmark?

Gonna post my old suggestion that got buried. Just gonna copy and paste since i’m on mobile and can’t actually quote.

Well, for starters we can have the hall of tutorials actually teach people proper game mechanics. Yknow like...aoes, big pulling etc etc. My other idea however, i already know would be absolutely unpopular. Msq instances are a joke now. Make them not a joke anymore. Make people have to actually know how to play their jobs for it. A majority of players play for the story correct) Good. Put a wall in the msq. If they can’t get past it maybe that’ll finally give them the kick in the head there’s something wrong with their play and they need to address it. I already know people’s counters to this are going to be “but i wanna play for the story i don’t wanna be an elitist!” I’m not saying to make it as hard as a damn savage raid. But make it actually require things like aoeing, pulling big packs if you’re a tank. Dpsing if you’re a healer. Just small things like that could go such a long way. If Msq is as sacred as people say then i’m sure if they did this all of a sudden we’d see a spike in player learning. I think part of the problem is that these players dont really have an incentive to want to get better. This would give the incentive of hey, i need to get better so i can progress with the msq. I 100% think 99% of players have the capability of it. That's why it frustrates me to no end seeing some of the posts in this thread when people defend this kind of behavior, because its not only hurting other players who want to get through content, but you're also hurting those very same players youre trying to "defend" by telling them "no its okay, dont listen to them, youre fine". Instead of making them have to grow, you're holding them back. Thats my issue with this whole situation. It's how i feel about the whole raiding situation in general. Savage clear rates are low because people are too scared to do it. If this msq wall was implemented, it would serve as building blocks to also get people to try out higher end content if they so wish to, because believe it or not, savage aint that hard. Call me an elitist or whatever but i really believe at least 90% of the community has it in them to clear, they just need a shove. A very big, forceful, msq instance wall SHOVE.

[LaughingBanana]

There seems to be a disconnect here. If we're talking about "sides", then I am most probably most apt in the "take it easy" side instead of "removing any underperformers immediately out of my sight" side, but even if I am have a very high tolerance of people not performing at the level that they 'should' be, the following is still true:

- Of course I would be annoyed if people couldn't do very basic stuff like dps not doing AOEs or healers only spamming cures in mid or high level dungeons. Heck, Tanks pulling only 3-4 enemies at a time annoy me somewhat too--although this one I tolerate a lot more since I just tend to go with whatever the Tank is most comfortable with and not make a fuss out of it, it's not a big deal. Wall to wall pull do makes me smile when it happens, believe it or not!

- Of course I would be annoyed when people deliberately do stuff like AFK or trolling. Heck more often than not when I encounter players like these it is I who first launch the votekick procedure.

That being said,

- I am really baffled about the "I don't want to be bothered giving feedback" attitude while at the same time bemoaning and lamenting the overall alleged skill deficiencies of the community over and over and over again. Even more, the attitude of "I don't care or don't want to care about your situation, if I see you underperforming I won't ask why I would just simply try to remove you"--I am just a bit surprised at such callous disregard to this thing called "empathy" towards other people.

- Related to the above, I find it extremely hard to believe that "people giving feedback to players" are in any danger of getting their account nuked by Square. I don't believe this at all. I've spent thousands of hours playing this game and I gave and receive feedback when things got out of hand very often and not a single time I got thrown in the Gaol or even receive a warning. This is probably because I favor to communicate with other players in a reasonable and measured manner, even when I'm pissed off at them.

- Yes, as Alxyzntlc mentioned above, the conversation has seemingly moved on to this ridiculous notion that there are a strata of players (the "elite") that must be "protected" at all cost from all other players they deem insufficient to be playing together with them. This, I just simply couldn't wrap my head around in. And yes, before in this thread I specifically asked these types of players to talk in a more practical manner: what needs actually to be done to satisfy you all? Because talking about how the "community" is "enabling" the alleged "toxic casualism" without offering any concrete way to deal with the situation is just in the end empty talk that will get to nowhere. What should be done to improve the situation?

[Caurcas]

Solutions have been proffered in this thread though.

[Wasselin]

- I am really baffled about the "I don't want to be bothered giving feedback" attitude while at the same time bemoaning and lamenting the overall alleged skill deficiencies of the community over and over and over again. Even more, the attitude of "I don't care or don't want to care about your situation, if I see you underperforming I won't ask why I would just simply try to remove you"--I am just a bit surprised at such callous disregard to this thing called "empathy" towards other people.

I think a lot of this is because people like to feel superior. Bemoaning how they are the only skilled player in a sea of players who just aren't as good as they are, is just a way to boost their own ego and self-esteem.

I can't think of any other reason that you would care that much about encountering people who aren't "performing" in a random duty.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I think a lot of this is because people like to feel superior. Bemoaning how they are the only skilled player in a sea of players who just aren't as good as they are, is just a way to boost their own ego and self-esteem.

I can't think of any other reason that you would care that much about encountering people who aren't "performing" in a random duty.

I can kind of understand. While i wouldn’t do it myself, i don’t blame others for just being tired of it. When you see it occur so much you eventually just get into an almost fearful mindset of “oh gosh, am i gonna run into another bad group?” Ive personally felt that a few times especially when i get into a trial group that just wipes countless times. It isn’t very fun and when it occurs frequently it just sort of drains you.

[Awha]

I cannot speak for others but for me personally it has nothing to do with feeling superior or anything I just do not like to deal with such things. Though that is part of the reason I queue with people I know more often then not.

It is random yes, which is part of the reason why I rather spend as little time as possible in said duty. :P