Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Awha]

Everyone has a different line when it comes to what they find acceptable from other players, but these standards aren't enforced by the game. Given the long time limits and easy content the game seems designed to accommodate MUCH less.

So, I do think it's fair to say that if you have a hard standard and can't tolerate less, you'll need to create your own group to ensure that standard is met. I'm not saying that to be derisive or imply your standards are unreasonable; I'm just stating the reality of the situation.


Everything impacts the group if we're going to be obtuse about it. Bad WIFI; old PC; classes that don't perform as well in dungeons as others; etc.

If you want to control external factors like individual playstyles or capability then you need to make your own group, or get a consensus for a vote kick; there's just no other way. If you care how other people play you need to create a situation where you control the other people you're playing with.

If you want to hold only yourself to a lower standard, however, you can do that and the game will accommodate it by throwing you very easy content with ample time to complete it. It's not your job to meet other peoples arbitrary standards, because everyone you group with will be different and expect different things.

I agree if you run into someone that does not meet your standards or is a general inconvenience then they should be voted out the group, or play with friends etc. . . I also just feel the same should be promoted on the other side.

My point is more so about the double standard. It is okay to tell people who have higher standards to queue with friends. Though people with lower standards are told do not worry about it content is easy enough. People should not remove you for playing poorly that is abuse. People should just deal with it.

I have never understood this mindset. If people tell others to find like minded individuals to avoid conflict and issues regarding higher standards same should be said to those with lower standards. Instead of vilify those that remove said players from groups. It is a subjective standard on either front but for some reason when it comes to playing poorly you run into much moral grandstanding. All I am saying is suggestions that are good for us with higher standards should be just as good for those with lower standards.

[Goji1639]

I agree if you run into someone that does not meet your standards or is a general inconvenience then they should be voted out the group, or play with friends etc. . . I also just feel the same should be promoted on the other side.

My point is more so about the double standard. It is okay to tell people who have higher standards to queue with friends. Though people with lower standards are told do not worry about it content is easy enough. People should not remove you for playing poorly that is abuse. People should just deal with it.

I have never understood this mindset. If people tell others to find like minded individuals to avoid conflict and issues regarding higher standards same should be said to those with lower standards. Instead of vilify those that remove said players from groups. It is a subjective standard on either front but for some reason when it comes to playing poorly you run into much moral grandstanding. All I am saying is suggestions that are good for us with higher standards should be just as good for those with lower standards.

I'm fine with vote kicking anyone mainly because you need a consensus vote. If the whole group agrees then it just wasn't meant to be, so you queue again and hope to find a better fit.

I just disagree that the whole 'make your own group' thing is a double standard. People with high standards want to control how YOU play YOUR character. People with low standards just want to control how they play THEIR character. It's a pretty important difference. The level of control people with high standards want will require them to make their own group to ensure their standard is met. People with low standards don't have the same restriction by design.

[Nayout]

"say it or something"
"or you cannot respond to what they write to you"

If I make a mistake because my hand locked up at the wrong moment I just say "my bad sorry, I was too slow" and 99% of the time people are okay with it. It sucks that I have to be dishonest to protect myself from prejudice and accusations but it's better to do that than potentially stalling the instance because someone's incorrect ideas about disability cause an argument.

Why are your expectations of other players higher than the expectations of the game itself?

This is quite simple to navigate. Playing badly in Savage+ or being half afk in Extreme? Just kick them.

Anything below? You're already losing braincells by being in the so-called "expert" dungeons, why lose more by caring about what happens around you? Just turn your brain off, do the dungeon, get out.

This isn't going to change at this point.

Because it is an attitude that ends up infecting other game modes where you DO harm other players, why do you think that in Frontline you find people who do not use potions? Because as they have never read his skills in PVE. Why do you see healers using cure 1 when they have 100% mana? Because it's how they have always cured in PVE.

Also of course I am going to be attentive to my companions if someone misplaces I use a Blackest Night to help them.

[Awha]

I'm fine with vote kicking anyone mainly because you need a consensus vote. If the whole group agrees then it just wasn't meant to be, so you queue again and hope to find a better fit.

I just disagree that the whole 'make your own group' thing is a double standard. People with high standards want to control how YOU play YOUR character. People with low standards just want to control how they play THEIR character. It's a pretty important difference. The level of control people with high standards want will need to make their own group to ensure their standard is met. People with low standards don't have the same restriction by design.

Thing is at the very least for me cannot speak for others I do not care how you play I want people to play how they want. Just do not want to personally deal with it. For this I have been told to run with friends or use PF which I agree SE does provide people with tools to help ensure a certain play experience or at the very least try.

In the end both aspects do have an impact on the party that is my point. Sure from your point it is not so much the impact on the party per-se but the level of control that those who have higher standards place on those with lower standards.

I would be inclined to agree but as seen in this thread when people like myself support liberal use of the vote kick feature it is met with disagreement because I could simply just leave instead of imposing my standards on others. Though aren't they doing the same? At the core? It requires us to add extra variables and conditions to establish a difference which I get some like to see shades of grey though for me those shades are often subjective and rather not be bogged down by them so I go over the core concept. Which is that if people want to play a certain way and guarantee that they style of play then they should use friends or PF.

[LariaKirin]

"say it or something"
"or you cannot respond to what they write to you"



Because it is an attitude that ends up infecting other game modes where you DO harm other players, why do you think that in Frontline you find people who do not use potions? Because as they have never read his skills in PVE. Why do you see healers using cure 1 when they have 100% mana? Because it's how they have always cured in PVE.

Also of course I am going to be attentive to my companions if someone misplaces I use a Blackest Night to help them.

This game has PvP?

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Humans will naturally take the path of least resistance. The game's casual content offers no resistance. This won't change.

If you want to save yourself some frustration, stop caring about how people perform in braindead casual dungeons.

[Nayout]

This game has PvP?

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Humans will naturally take the path of least resistance. The game's casual content offers no resistance. This won't change.

If you want to save yourself some frustration, stop caring about how people perform in braindead casual dungeons.

Nice fallacies right?
Have you invented that I "get frustrated" when the reality is that I or someone tells you something you are doing, do you ignore it or do not want to do it? We kick you.

Look how frustrated or how many headaches it gives me to have to press two buttons

[KizuyaKatogami]

This game has PvP?

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Humans will naturally take the path of least resistance. The game's casual content offers no resistance. This won't change.

If you want to save yourself some frustration, stop caring about how people perform in braindead casual dungeons.

If people speak up about it maybe it will change. But in the end it’s on the company to do that, and Square isn’t exactly the most communicative unfortunately. Don’t even use their own official forums for feedback and instead turn to twitter :/

[Rinhi]

Pages and pages on and people still are glossing over a very simple point I have made time and time again. That it takes the smallest amount of effort to do things generally correctly and be passable, but that's beyond half the players I meet.

because people have no counter argument to that and have to strawman and make up excuses for just this
absolutely no one in this thread was complaining about people making avoidable mistakes here and there - no, it was about people not knowing and refusing to learn how to play their classes

People are always like, "what's a few extra minutes"? It's not just a few, it's several. Many times doubling the length of dungeons.. Many times making it unbearable in raid content, even leading to wipes.

not to mention that those minutes add up, too

like, I don't mind if a dungeon or a raid is a shitshow, I think it's fun and all, but a quick one because everyone played well is fun, too!
but when eden's promise eternity keeps wiping because both healers cast cure 1 and physick and nothing else, then there's something wrong, not to mention eating every mechanic even if we wiped to it several times before, that IS an issue

[linayar]

This is the enabling culture people are talking about. Playing poorly does impact the group. Sure the degree of impact may depend on person and which side on you are on. Though one cannot argue in good faith that a players performance does not impact the group.

No one needs to argue that because the amount of impact for each person is subjective. There is no argument to be made.

Sure it sucks getting people to queue with higher standards, but we are told to find friends and do a PF so why not setup a PF for freestyle sam, melee rdm, no tank stance tank and no heal healer. I am sure they will get far. Point remains if one wants to play poorly fine, but if they want to play poorly they should also be told to find friends or use PF.


In the end the same standard should apply, if people want to have higher standards they are told to queue with friends and or use PF.

You don't choose your party in DF. You choose your party in PF. If you care about who you party with, use the tool that facilitates that.

[KizuyaKatogami]

No one needs to argue that because the amount of impact for each person is subjective. There is no argument to be made.

You don't choose your party in DF. You choose your party in PF. If you care about who you party with, use the tool that facilitates that.

That doesnt change the fact things need to change. Please stop just sweeping things under the rug when theres a very prevalent problem. This isnt even just limited to people not happy with who they get paired with. It's a problem with the game and the things they dont teach that should really be in the tutorial. There is an argument to be made for that.