Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[KizuyaKatogami]

My post was more about telling people why they shouldn't expect anyone to be open about their disability with random people in an online game rather than a defense for poor performance. Most people with disabilities experience some manner of prejudice in real life, and as we know online people tend to have a much looser filter when it comes to insensitive comments. When a person knows the kind of things people like me deal with irl, they're more understanding of why we're often quiet about having a disability when in a random group in an online game.

As for contributing to my raid team regardless of disability, I wish that was true. We have had wipes because my finger twitched or my hand locked up at a bad time. We have had to end some raids early or cancel them because I was in too much pain. There was a three week period at the start of the expansion in which I was unable to even play never mind raid. Our raids are only two hours long because of me. But the people I'm with are okay with all of this, we're not a competitive team. We just want to get our kills with some laughs along the way. I'm very lucky to have a team full of good people who are willing to put up with my limitations. Though the flip side is that when my disability doesn't get in the way my performance is typically more than enough to deal with savage so we can make up for lost time when I am doing okay.



Not by all though, some here assume playing badly = must be a leech. Some people have legitimately valid reasons for poor performance and some people's best is a very low bar. I hate it as well when I encounter someone who is performing very badly but my first reaction isn't "omg a leech". I reserve that opinion for when someone is clearly offended that they're expected to have performance that is adequate for the content they're doing. I found in DF that most people make silly mistakes they otherwise would not do or are unaware that they're even making them. While the latter is certainly a problem this does not qualify someone to be seen as knowingly having parasitic behaviour.

The thing is though, at what point does it become a thing of seeing that not everyone is disabled and these people actually are just lazy or inconsiderate of others. People seem to just gloss over the fact the latter is very prevalent and possible in this game and just assume the best in people. And i mean, i don’t want to assume ANYTHING. But my question would be what kind of disability prevents people from reading their skills and seeing they have positionals or that they should be aoeing/dpsing on healers? Genuine question btw.

[Awha]

My post was more about telling people why they shouldn't expect anyone to be open about their disability with random people in an online game rather than a defense for poor performance. Most people with disabilities experience some manner of prejudice in real life, and as we know online people tend to have a much looser filter when it comes to insensitive comments. When a person knows the kind of things people like me deal with irl, they're more understanding of why we're often quiet about having a disability when in a random group in an online game.

As for contributing to my raid team regardless of disability, I wish that was true. We have had wipes because my finger twitched or my hand locked up at a bad time. We have had to end some raids early or cancel them because I was in too much pain. There was a three week period at the start of the expansion in which I was unable to even play never mind raid. Our raids are only two hours long because of me. But the people I'm with are okay with all of this, we're not a competitive team. We just want to get our kills with some laughs along the way. I'm very lucky to have a team full of good people who are willing to put up with my limitations. Though the flip side is that when my disability doesn't get in the way my performance is typically more than enough to deal with savage so we can make up for lost time when I am doing okay.



Not by all though, some here assume playing badly = must be a leech. Some people have legitimately valid reasons for poor performance and some people's best is a very low bar. I hate it as well when I encounter someone who is performing very badly but my first reaction isn't "omg a leech". I reserve that opinion for when someone is clearly offended that they're expected to have performance that is adequate for the content they're doing. I found in DF that most people make silly mistakes they otherwise would not do or are unaware that they're even making them. While the latter is certainly a problem this does not qualify someone to be seen as knowingly having parasitic behaviour.

That is the thing if someone's bar is that low why is it alright to tell other with higher standards to queue with friends or use PF, but pushing the same standard on those with lower standards gets met with push back?

I really do not care so much how people play, how they play and the reason is on them. Though just because I do not care how they play does not mean I should not kick them from the group when I do not do not want to deal with them.

[Penthea]

The thing is though, at what point does it become a thing of seeing that not everyone is disabled and these people actually are just lazy or inconsiderate of others. People seem to just gloss over the fact the latter is very prevalent and possible in this game and just assume the best in people. And i mean, i don’t want to assume ANYTHING. But my question would be what kind of disability prevents people from reading their skills and seeing they have positionals or that they should be aoeing/dpsing on healers? Genuine question btw.

You'll find in my posts I'm not saying people should assume every person who performs badly is disabled. I never said anything like this at all. I am well aware that disabled people are a minority.

I was initially responding to someone who essentially said "tell me if you're not performing well due to disability", someone else informed them that people don't because that can be met with crappy comments and their response to that was basically "have courage to say it". I wanted to explain that people being quiet about their disability is often not due to a lack of courage, but being already so tired of dealing with prejudice irl that they just want to avoid if they can. I gave the example that I lie about why I make some mistakes in a random group so that I don't have someone accuse me of pretending I have disability. I'd rather people just think I derped and move on quickly than risk getting into an argument with someone who has very flawed views on disability.

My problem with many threads like this is so many are quick to assume that poor performance must be because someone is knowingly getting carried and are happy to do so as long as no one says anything. Absolutely people like this do exist, I even raided with some of them. I know very well how frustrating it is to encounter these people. But we don't know the random people we meet in DF. We don't know if they're having a bad day, haven't played the class in ages, are getting lag spikes, are disabled, are unaware they're playing badly or if they're knowingly leeching. We don't know unless we ask and if my experience in DF is anything to go on people often just don't ask at all. I have played with people who were utterly silent in party chat but complained loads in another chat channel about someone who is playing badly. Some of them assumed the absolute worst about those people without even trying to confirm if what they thought was true.

Being annoyed with someone performing badly? I'm 100% okay with that. Assuming anyone performing badly is just hoping to get carried? I'm not okay with that because it's just not the truth. It's not as black and white as some people like to think.

But my question would be what kind of disability prevents people from reading their skills and seeing they have positionals or that they should be aoeing/dpsing on healers? Genuine question btw.

Disability can give people cognitive issues that make things difficult to remember at times or they get moments of being absent minded. I actually deal with this myself. My combat memory is not what it used to be. But I am riding on my ten+ years of raiding experience to cover up for that so I can wing it a lot, but not everyone has the experience I have. I also avoid playing melee because I get visual artefacts in my vision that can impede what I see so playing ranged is a far safer option for me, but it can still disrupt what I see at times and get me killed.

But of course there comes a point in which a person needs to accept that their limitations can mean their performance will never be enough, or that they can't use the disability card for everything. But this is different from person to person. Some disabled people work very hard to exceed their limitations, some don't and some simply cannot. We're all different people.

[Goji1639]

That is the thing if someone's bar is that low why is it alright to tell other with higher standards to queue with friends or use PF, but pushing the same standard on those with lower standards gets met with push back?

If you have higher standards you want to force everyone in the group to play to your standards. If you want to control how other people play their character you should probably make your own group.

If you have lower standards that likely only applies to your own play. You're not going to get mad at someone who's doing optimal rotations and try to force them down to a lower standard.

[KizuyaKatogami]

If you have higher standards you want to force everyone in the group to play to your standards. If you want to control how other people play their character you should probably make your own group.

If you have lower standards that likely only applies to your own play. You're not going to get mad at someone who's doing optimal rotations and try to force them down to a lower standard.

I get that this is more of a general thing, but again i have to say i don’t think knowing your rotation and knowing to do positionals, do aoes in dungeons, or knowing to equip yourself with a higher item level weapon is having a high standard. That really should just be the norm. No ones expecting people to be top tier raiders in casual content, or forcing that down their throats. We just want people to do the basics for their job. In the end, it’s a multiplayer game. Your actions affect others whether you like it or not. Going into a multiplayer game, or moreso an mmo i should say. Most people should be willing to want to improve or at least understand the basics of the game whether that means spending 5 mins to ask someone or look up a guide or anything really.

[Caurcas]

Pages and pages on and people still are glossing over a very simple point I have made time and time again. That it takes the smallest amount of effort to do things generally correctly and be passable, but that's beyond half the players I meet.

[Awha]

If you have higher standards you want to force everyone in the group to play to your standards. If you want to control how other people play their character you should probably make your own group.

If you have lower standards that likely only applies to your own play. You're not going to get mad at someone who's doing optimal rotations and try to force them down to a lower standard.

This is the enabling culture people are talking about. Playing poorly does impact the group. Sure the degree of impact may depend on person and which side on you are on. Though one cannot argue in good faith that a players performance does not impact the group.

Sure it sucks getting people to queue with higher standards, but we are told to find friends and do a PF so why not setup a PF for freestyle sam, melee rdm, no tank stance tank and no heal healer. I am sure they will get far. Point remains if one wants to play poorly fine, but if they want to play poorly they should also be told to find friends or use PF.


In the end the same standard should apply, if people want to have higher standards they are told to queue with friends and or use PF.

[Goji1639]

I get that this is more of a general thing, but again i have to say i don’t think knowing your rotation and knowing to do positionals, do aoes in dungeons, or knowing to equip yourself with a higher item level weapon is having a high standard. That really should just be the norm. No ones expecting people to be top tier raiders in casual content, or forcing that down their throats. We just want people to do the basics for their job. In the end, it’s a multiplayer game. Your actions affect others whether you like it or not. Going into a multiplayer game, or moreso an mmo i should say. Most people should be willing to want to improve or at least understand the basics of the game whether that means spending 5 mins to ask someone or look up a guide or anything really.

Everyone has a different line when it comes to what they find acceptable from other players, but these standards aren't enforced by the game. Given the long time limits and easy content the game seems designed to accommodate MUCH less.

So, I do think it's fair to say that if you have a hard standard and can't tolerate less, you'll need to create your own group to ensure that standard is met. I'm not saying that to be derisive or imply your standards are unreasonable; I'm just stating the reality of the situation.

This is the enabling culture people are talking about. Playing poorly does impact the group. Sure the degree of impact may depend on person and which side on you are on. Though one cannot argue in good faith that a players performance does not impact the group.

Sure it sucks getting people to queue with higher stand


In the end the same standard should apply, if people want to have higher standards they are told to queue with friends and or use PF.

So the same should be said for the other side of the fence. Both have an impact on the party.

Everything impacts the group if we're going to be obtuse about it. Bad WIFI; old PC; classes that don't perform as well in dungeons as others; etc.

If you want to control external factors like individual playstyles or capability then you need to make your own group, or get a consensus for a vote kick; there's just no other way. If you care how other people play you need to create a situation where you control the other people you're playing with.

If you want to hold only yourself to a lower standard, however, you can do that and the game will accommodate it by throwing you very easy content with ample time to complete it. It's not your job to meet other peoples arbitrary standards, because everyone you group with will be different and expect different things.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Everyone has a different line when it comes to what they find acceptable from other players, but these standards aren't enforced by the game. Given the long time limits and easy content the game seems designed to accommodate MUCH less.

So, I do think it's fair to say that if you have a hard standard and can't tolerate less, you'll need to create your own group to ensure that standard is met. I'm not saying that to be derisive or imply your standards are unreasonable; I'm just stating the reality of the situation.


Everything impacts the group if we're going to be obtuse about it. Bad WIFI; old PC; classes that don't perform as well in dungeons as others; etc.

If you want to control external factors like individual playstyles or capability then you need to make your own group, or get a consensus for a vote kick; there's just no other way. If you care how other people play you need to create a situation where you control the other people you're playing with.

If you want to hold only yourself to a lower standard, however, you can do that and the game will accommodate it by throwing you very easy content with ample time to complete it. It's not your job to meet other peoples arbitrary standards, because everyone you group with will be different and expect different things.

This is where ill disagree only because there are forms of "casual" content where people do need to know their jobs or it does severely impact others. An example i gave earlier was Titania. It was a major wall for people because it had an actual dps check. If people cant clear it they cant progress with the msq they love so much. So are you saying everyone should just start making a pf to clear a casual trial because other people dont want to take 10 mins to look at a guide or they for some reaosn cant tell an IL385 weapon is better than an IL 290 one? I only care how other people play when its affecting others. Thats the reason why its such a problem in a multiplayer game. No other mmo has as severe of a problem as this game does in regards to this and its the enabling culture that makes it so. People just want to sweep the problems under the rug instead of address it like threads like this attempt to do.

[Goji1639]

This is where ill disagree only because there are forms of "casual" content where people do need to know their jobs or it does severely impact others. An example i gave earlier was Titania. It was a major wall for people because it had an actual dps check. If people cant clear it they cant progress with the msq they love so much. So are you saying everyone should just start making a pf to clear a casual trial because other people dont want to take 10 mins to look at a guide or they for some reaosn cant tell an IL385 weapon is better than an IL 290 one? I only care how other people play when its affecting others. Thats the reason why its such a problem in a multiplayer game. No other mmo has as severe of a problem as this game does in regards to this and its the enabling culture that makes it so. People just want to sweep the problems under the rug instead of address it like threads like this attempt to do.

If you can't actually clear the content then it's a problem and people need to improve; I can agree with that.

The problem is taking one instance of casual content where people need to 'git gud' and attempting to apply it to everything. Has Titania 'really' been an impassable wall for most of us in the story because the casual community as a whole just isn't good enough?

I feel like casual content in this game gets cleared frequently and pretty quickly most of the time. It's not that the community isn't good or committed enough; it's just not as good as you want it to be. Thing is that your standard is arbitrary, you can't enforce it and you can't really make a convincing case that there's a serious problem with people getting stuck on casual content.

All I can really tell you is what I've been telling you; if you want to ensure a certain standard is always met you'll have to make your own groups.