Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[SturmChurro]

I get not wanting to have to spend extra time to work with others to improve, but conversely, that's part of being a multi-player game. Remember that other folks are paying to play this game as well, that nobody would have the world to enjoy if everyone wasn't participating. I feel it's better to air on the side of caution and be gentle with folks and make efforts to help rather than resorting to blunt tactics and force in order to strong-arm self-serving desires.

Exactly! So why do players willfully play at a poor level, making fights last longer, and just make the game more difficult for their fellow player? It's what I've been saying the whole time!

Encouraging players to do better, just makes the game experience better for everyone involved! Instead of players choosing to play at a level that is detrimental to the game experience of everyone else participating.

[Alxyzntlct]

Exactly! So why do players willfully play at a poor level, making fights last longer, and just make the game more difficult for their fellow player? It's what I've been saying the whole time!

Encouraging players to do better, just makes the game experience better for everyone involved! Instead of players choosing to play at a level that is detrimental, to the game experience of everyone else participating.

Ok, wow... really? Did you really feel the need to twist my words around like that?

This is exactly the kind of garbage people have to deal with in daily real life as it were, and you're replicating it in a game environment. If you have a point to make, do it and leave it at that. The fact that you felt the need to twist my words like that makes me think that you're not actually as "helpful" as you think you are, and that's a huge part of the communication problem that regularly occurs when it comes to sharing information in games like this.

I've done a lot, like, a LOT of helping with inexperienced players to learn games and skill and the whole 9 yards, and one thing I've learned foremost is that teaching others doesn't go well if done as a blunt instrument that's focused purely on self-serving desires. People often prefer it if folks approach them on an even ground, coming at it with a perspective of actually helping the player rather than simply a means to an end.

And honestly, it seriously feels like you don't actually care about other players at all and only about yourself. Even the context in which you attempted to twist your words just belittles other players, clearly coming from a negative perspective:

"So why do players willfully play at a poor level..."
"...make the game more difficult for their fellow player."
"Instead of players choosing to play at a level that is detrimental..."

That very perspective is part of the problem. That's the attitude of exclusivity, not inclusiveness. Which honestly, when you look at the very story of these games we play, is ironic because these stories are all about community and helping each other, lol.

[SturmChurro]

Ok, wow... really? Did you really feel the need to twist my words around like that?

This is exactly the kind of garbage people have to deal with in daily real life as it were, and you're replicating it in a game environment. If you have a point to make, do it and leave it at that. The fact that you felt the need to twist my words like that makes me think that you're not actually as "helpful" as you think you are, and that's a huge part of the communication problem that regularly occurs when it comes to sharing information in games like this.

I've done a lot, like, a LOT of helping with inexperienced players to learn games and skill and the whole 9 yards, and one thing I've learned foremost is that teaching others doesn't go well if done as a blunt instrument that's focused purely on self-serving desires. People often prefer it if folks approach them on an even ground, coming at it with a perspective of actually helping the player rather than simply a means to an end.

And honestly, it seriously feels like you don't actually care about other players at all and only about yourself. Even the context in which you attempted to twist your words just belittles other players, clearly coming from a negative perspective:

"So why do players willfully play at a poor level..."
"...make the game more difficult for their fellow player."
"Instead of players choosing to play at a level that is detrimental..."

That very perspective is part of the problem. That's the attitude of exclusivity, not inclusiveness. Which honestly, when you look at the very story of these games we play, is ironic because these stories are all about community and helping each other, lol.

I don't actually offer help to anybody. I'm a quiet player in FFXIV, for the most part, but when I am asked for help it is generally well received - since the player(s) did ask for it. Don't get me wrong, there are a few times, where when our tank isn't actually doing their job, and I get killed because of it I may have asked politely "where is our tank", but you see that is a player choosing not to play their role at an adequate level - at all - and my gameplay experience is ruined (I'm dead on the floor), and aggro is hopping around everywhere. That's just one example. At level 80, players are choosing to play at that level. No way around it. I am not referring to new, actual inexperienced players, I am referring to these players.

I simply put my own take on your perspective. Players choosing to not play at an adequate level are directly ruining the gameplay experience of the team and other players, and yes, myself. I choose to contribute, why can't others?

[Alxyzntlct]

Well... Hrm. On one hand I can appreciate what you're saying, as you play at a certain level and because you can do it, you have an expectation that others can and will do the same. And ultimately it becomes important because that's what leads to completing the challenges and getting the rewards.

But there's a part here that keeps standing out:
"...but you see that is a player choosing not to play their role..."
"I choose to contribute, why can't others?"

This seems to be an exceedingly pointed view that players are actively trying to ruin other players' experience of the game. Is that really it? Is there no possibility that they simply haven't had the chance to learn as much as you have? That they're trying to contribute as well but can't yet because they don't know enough?

There just doesn't seem to be any allowance for a learning curve, for folks to "learn by doing", which is actually very, very common for many people. Not everyone can go online and quickly master theoretical lessons by reading/watching guides.

Again, I've had the exact same experiences in WoW and after all the years I've been playing games, while I've seen a great many folks get in over their heads in game content and not be prepared, I have yet to meet anyone that wasn't willing to learn if someone (usually me) was willing to take the time to help them.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Well... Hrm. On one hand I can appreciate what you're saying, as you play at a certain level and because you can do it, you have an expectation that others can and will do the same. And ultimately it becomes important because that's what leads to completing the challenges and getting the rewards.

But there's a part here that keeps standing out:
"...but you see that is a player choosing not to play their role..."
"I choose to contribute, why can't others?"

This seems to be an exceedingly pointed view that players are actively trying to ruin other players' experience of the game. Is that really it? Is there no possibility that they simply haven't had the chance to learn as much as you have? That they're trying to contribute as well but can't yet because they don't know enough?

There just doesn't seem to be any allowance for a learning curve, for folks to "learn by doing", which is actually very, very common for many people. Not everyone can go online and quickly master theoretical lessons by reading/watching guides.

Again, I've had the exact same experiences in WoW and after all the years I've been playing games, while I've seen a great many folks get in over their heads in game content and not be prepared, I have yet to meet anyone that wasn't willing to learn if someone (usually me) was willing to take the time to help them.

I think the problem here is that, i dont think anyone is really talking about this in a way of new players. I would hope people understand new players arent going to know everything about their job or roles etc. My posts have been moreso about the people that are essentially at the endgame. Theyre max level, theyre doing the current patch dungeon or trials etc, but they somehow dont know the basics of their job. Thats my gripe with it all. And a big problem with this that ive brought up before is that, if its not brought up, theyre going to think theyre doing fine and that everythings okay. Enabling them and telling them theyre fine when theyre not is only hindering them in the long run. What if theyre curious in the harder endgame content? Theyre never going to be able to pass it because theyve been told theyre doing fine and theyre alright when in reality theyre not.

[Seera1024]

I think the problem here is that, i dont think anyone is really talking about this in a way of new players. I would hope people understand new players arent going to know everything about their job or roles etc. My posts have been moreso about the people that are essentially at the endgame. Theyre max level, theyre doing the current patch dungeon or trials etc, but they somehow dont know the basics of their job. Thats my gripe with it all. And a big problem with this that ive brought up before is that, if its not brought up, theyre going to think theyre doing fine and that everythings okay. Enabling them and telling them theyre fine when theyre not is only hindering them in the long run. What if theyre curious in the harder endgame content? Theyre never going to be able to pass it because theyve been told theyre doing fine and theyre alright when in reality theyre not.

That's what he's asking people to do. To politely give advice to players who aren't performing well so that they can improve.

At least that's what I got from his post.

[Tactical]

people out here REALLY be like,
"this community isn't obligated to help anyone"
"i don't offer help to people at all"
"quietly kicking people out of my runs is okay and reasonable"

and then go,
"this community is toxic! not helpful at all!"
"grrr newbies bad, time to complain in forums instead of doing anything about it"
"people are KNOWINGLY playing bad on purpose! (source: dude trust me)"

With that being said, I wonder if any significant portion of the playerbase do post in these forums, let alone read these threads.

[ZedxKayn]

people out here REALLY be like,
"this community isn't obligated to help anyone"
"i don't offer help to people at all"
"quietly kicking people out of my runs is okay and reasonable"

and then go,
"this community is toxic! not helpful at all!"
"grrr newbies bad, time to complain in forums instead of doing anything about it"
"people are KNOWINGLY playing bad on purpose! (source: dude trust me)"

With that being said, I wonder if any significant portion of the playerbase do post in these forums, let alone read these threads.

When trying to help can result in bans, it's hard to blame their frustration.

[Ammokkx]

When trying to help can result in bans, it's hard to blame their frustration.

I help people plenty and the only time I've eaten a ban was on the forums for, and I quote, telling a guy to "stop being a bitch". which, yeah, I did kinda have that one coming to me.

[Awha]

I will be be honest, I am one of those players that depending on my mood I will not put up with a new player. Though I do have the mindset that being new does not entitle someone to a different or special treatment. Sure people should be understanding of newer players but just because it should be that way does not mean that it should be expected.

That is my general issue with the culture of enabling, people should be help personally responsible and accountable for their own actions and play. "If" people are not willing to put up with new or lower skilled players that should not be viewed as an inherently deprived action.

Everyone has a subjective standard, and as mentioned in this thread one can disagree with the standard but that is where it should end in my opinion. Though things often do not end at that point because people on either side of the camp not so much in this thread but more so in game feel the need or desire to interject their own moral standard as the only viable way of playing. I have even had people try to misrepresent my stance in game as to when I remove people as a means of me trying to impose my own personal standard, when the reality is I just want nothing to do with said people. I do not really care per-se how people play, just do not do it around me. :P

I am just an advocate for using all the tools present in the game, be it PF, playing with friends, or removing players from the group with successful kicks.