Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Vinupra-Rosa]

Please don’t be one of those people that’s just calls anyone who doesn’t want to enable bad play an “elitist”. I’ve looked at op’s posts, they haven’t said anything that i really disagree with or anything i’d label as elitist.

Then you're not reading between the lines. There are many small thinks that hint towards most of this just OP being elitist and angry at the 'rabble' - amongst them would be their repeat phrasing of underperforming players as 'leeches' and 'parasites', their advocacy for DF tiering and automatic kicking of their hated underperforming players. Their insistence that they're 'average, not even that good' when their numbers paint an entirely different matter -- 99s, >75s. Their assertion that they're being 'taken advantage of' by the 'great community' and that '50% of people in DF are bad'.

All of that point to their expectations being set too high for Duty Finder of all places - a place where you should expect people of all skill levels to exist. And 'all skill levels' is not just 'good' but can also include 'bad' - and strongly hate being saddled by those who underperform, immediately assuming the worst of these people. Ergo, an elitist.

The amount of hours you have to put into the game just to hit level 80 is significant. If by then someone hasn’t looked at a guide for their job or taken some time to learn their rotation, that’s called being lazy and extremely inconsiderate.

People knowing that guides exist by the time they hit 80 is not a guarantee. Some people end up consulting the wrong guides or misunderstand them. Someone I know misunderstood a SAM guide badly back in stormblood, and it took someone who actually knows SAM to sit down and set them straight on that. My friends and the people I help out in NN get guides thrown at them all the time but not everyone is in NN, or is in an NN that bothers, or has friends who know resouces and give them. People who run solo, those who have super busy lives or aren't exactly long-time gamers (and even some of) might not even think guides exist.

I’m genuinely tired of seeing people enable this and be extremely sensitive to any ounce of criticism or help people give and seeing people blindly defend that. It’s ridiculous and it’s going to ruin the game in the long run.

Game seems alright so far. Also it's not so much enabling as it is tolerating because reasonable people would at least try to understand that, hey, people might have issues some of which are not under their control.

And honestly, most duty finder runs I've done for the past year have been mostly average. And of my problem runs, most of the 'problem people' have been receptive to help with actual nightmare scenarios so few and insignificant I've mostly forgotten about them.

This quote below is something I strongly agree with.

Nah, most likely it's just because most sane people would not lose their mind over something as trivial as playing DF content in 15 minutes instead of 12.

And... this please.

What I would like is to treat pre-made group as one vote and you cannot vote to kick the people in your pre-made group.

Example:

You queue with two friends.

If a vote kick is issued for one of you, the other two don't get to vote.

If a vote kick is issued for someone else, and two of you vote "no" while one of you votes "yes", the vote for all three of you is counted as one vote representing the majority, which is "no" in this case.

If your group has even number of people and there is no majority vote, then the vote defaults to "no" for your group.

Finally, a vote kick can only be initiated if there are at least 3 different groups of voters. If there are exactly 3 groups, then the vote must be unanimous from the other two groups in order to pass.

If there are only two groups or less, then the only option available is vote to abandon.

et-

large pulls really aren't that daunting

For reasonably experienced players. There's this little bump you have to get past, and one of my recent aurum vale runs refreshed this point in my head. Sprout was new, scared and cautious of mob pulls after a pull in the initial room went awry, and I (and one other) had to coach them a bit about the dungeon. They continued to be scared and cautious, but they otherwise took to advice exceptionally well.

The fear is real, especially when some dungeons might hit harder than expected, and others not as hard as expected.

[Rinhi]

Then you're not reading between the lines. There are many small thinks that hint towards most of this just OP being elitist and angry at the 'rabble' - amongst them would be their repeat phrasing of underperforming players as 'leeches' and 'parasites', their advocacy for DF tiering and automatic kicking of their hated underperforming players. Their insistence that they're 'average, not even that good' when their numbers paint an entirely different matter -- 99s, >75s. Their assertion that they're being 'taken advantage of' by the 'great community' and that '50% of people in DF are bad'.

the OPs humble brag aside, how are they wrong in the sense that many players do not know how to play their f-ing job adequately? why are you arguing in defense of people who actively refuse to play better and shun any kind of advice?
and again you are implying OP and others are losing their mind or sleep over it which is frankly insulting and doesn't help your argument one bit, it just makes you look childish and petty
why are people so against others wanting the average player to (want to) get better? I don't get it

[linayar]

why are people so against others wanting the average player to (want to) get better? I don't get it

Personally, I'm not. But wanting others to get better is not the same as helping others to get better. And I don't necessarily blame them for not wanting to help, as people have their own reasons to play and limited time to play.

But that's why making your own group is always the best choice if you're not comfortable with the way the "average" player per your own personal anecdotal experience plays. This goes for everyone, but generally, the duty finder tends to favor those who are not as critical about others while the party finder tends to favor those who are more critical of others, so making your own group is more suitable for the latter type of players, although running with friends also helps every type of players.

[Vinupra-Rosa]

the OPs humble brag aside, how are they wrong in the sense that many players do not know how to play their f-ing job adequately?

The assertion that "50% of all players" are "leechers" is overblown. The DF is on average, painfully average. My last four DF runs had me consistently second on aggro list right behind the tank, and that's alright? The runs themselves were neither particularly bad or good. People did mechanics correctly and the run was finished in average time. Friends of mine also report the same general trend, with truly 'bad' runs with obviously 'bad' people being not that common just as the truly 'good' runs from being paired with all-good people being also not that common.

why are you arguing in defense of people who actively refuse to play better and shun any kind of advice?

I'm arguing in favour of not immediately assuming the worst of people for underperforming. My stance has been consistent - if someone is performing badly, offer help and offer it kindly. It is then their perogative on whether or not to accept help and, if they refuse and their stubbornness is causing the party grief you may remove them then. (But for the simple fact that they're 'underperforming'? There are too many reasons behind why that may be the case outside of sheer malice or laziness so that in itself is not kick-worthy)

and again you are implying OP and others are losing their mind or sleep over it which is frankly insulting and doesn't help your argument one bit, it just makes you look childish and petty

One simply has to look at OP's tone. In the matter in which they refer to 'underperformers' (and their humble-brag plays into this: if they seriously think that they are average, then it stands to reason their idea on what is 'underperforming' might also be higher than is reasonable). Also in the suggestions they made. Yes, they certainly do sound absolutely livid and seem to be losing sleep at the thought of being 'shackled with underperformers' who are naught but 'social parasites' that are 'part of this great community' and are 'taking advantage of them'.

why are people so against others wanting the average player to (want to) get better? I don't get it

Which leads me to think you're missing my point entirely. As I said earlier in this response, my one single consistent stance is help people; I do hold the sentiment of wanting everyone to be better overall. And if you are bothered enough by people who are "underperforming" by your standards to complain about them then by all means extend a helping hand and help them get better. Do this, and do this with the genuine intent to help (and not, like some people do, to lord over others) then a surprising majority of players will heed your help. My last week literally had me in three different DF runs with 'underperformers' and all of them took to advice quite well. And this is the only thing you can do with 'underperformers' if you do indeed want these people to get better.

There will be some who will be stubborn and go 'you don't pay my sub (tm)' and there is nothing you can do about them yourself other than remove them from the party if they are indeed being that big of a bother/hinderance to the party's performance. Complaining about them does nothing, and trying to raise a call of arms against these people will, again, do nothing but end up in dirt flinging threads like you see here. These people exist. Acknowledge and accept their existence and deal with them as appropriate when you encounter them in the wild.

And I did also raise a point in making the average player want to get better --- and that's by being a bloody role model. Show new/unskilled players how things are done. That is why I was vehemently against OP's tiered DF in the first place.

Going to get shit for this but I am one if those players that thinks if a tank is scared they should not be a tank.

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