Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

And so? Why is that a cause for concern? Perhaps they're new players, perhaps they forget the Titania mechanics, perhaps they're just simply at their best moment at the time. It's not like you can always expect to be paired up with top-notch players or those in perfect conditions every time you use DF in FFXIV anyways. It is a game played by millions, after all.

This is precisely why people should lower their expectation & give people a chance in DFs. If one couldn't do these two without losing their cool then I believe they should just stick to premade. Besides, wiping may serve as a wake up call for said 'can't do dps rotation properly'-players.

EDIT: in case of intentionally being detrimental to the group? As rough & ineffective as it sounds, we have vote kick. Being uncooperative has no place in party plays.

[LaughingBanana]

Well it's enough to frustrate me when the reason for wiping is the gladiator (not paladin) who refuses to take ads and blames the (at the moment) new guy dps who's going through for his first time.

Which is exactly what happened to a friend of mine, who was trying to catch up back in late 5.3 to do stuff with me. Said that really put him out of the moment, as the player was pulling so fast to avoid being kicked, and then intentionally played so poorly that it was causing us to get stuck.

Which in lies the problem. Not people that are bad because they are new or returning, but players that are bad intentionally, because they refuse to play the game at all. I don't care if you didn't know to pick up specific ads your first time on titania, because that would be someone's first time on titania. I do care if you refuse to do so, knowing full well you're meant to, because you just choose to be crap.

I will state it: Playing like crap intentionally is not a playstyle, it's not an excuse, and it should be a reportable offense at any sign that it is the case.

Well of course if such a thing happened or if I encounter such a deliberate troll I would be angry too. That is a far cry from people not intentionally doing bad and cause wipes or make DF runs 5-6 minutes longer.

[linayar]

Playing like crap intentionally is not a playstyle, it's not an excuse, and it should be a reportable offense at any sign that it is the case.

And who's to be the judge of that? What if they weren't doing it intentionally or what if your definition is different than theirs?

The vote kick/vote abandon system is there for issues that do not need to escalate to the GM's attention. Sure, there is a rule against obstruction of play, but I doubt what is meant by that rule covers what you seem to think it should.

[Jijifli]

And who's to be the judge of that? What if they weren't doing it intentionally or what if your definition is different than theirs?

The vote kick/vote abandon system is there for issues that do not need to escalate to the GM's attention. Sure, there is a rule against obstruction of play, but I doubt what is meant by that rule covers what you seem to think it should.

I mean, I get I wasn't there myself, but just from being told what was going on, this player was...

1) not using their job stone
2) would always instantly pull the boss, but without tank stance, they wouldn't keep threat.
3) wasn't even attacking the ads for the second phase, which means it's also likely they weren't attacking the boss either.

For other cases, I think you can easily work down the line. But if you wanna know what helps me judge it.

Does the player repeatedly do the exact same incorrect thing, despite any form of assistance given, without even a hint or hair or them attempting to fix it?

If a player is new, or attempting to learn, generally they will at least attempt something that is given with intent to help them. Mess it up, possibly, but at least there'd be a visible attempt.

Now if I ask, say a rdm, to please actually cast spells, and he continues to not cast spells, and just follow us around, I think, just maybe, they're doing it intentionally.

[linayar]

I mean, I get I wasn't there myself, but just from being told what was going on, this player was...

1) not using their job stone
2) would always instantly pull the boss, but without tank stance, they wouldn't keep threat.
3) wasn't even attacking the ads for the second phase, which means it's also likely they weren't attacking the boss either.

For other cases, I think you can easily work down the line. But if you wanna know what helps me judge it.

Does the player repeatedly do the exact same incorrect thing, despite any form of assistance given, without even a hint or hair or them attempting to fix it?

If a player is new, or attempting to learn, generally they will at least attempt something that is given with intent to help them. Mess it up, possibly, but at least there'd be a visible attempt.

Now if I ask, say a rdm, to please actually cast spells, and he continues to not cast spells, and just follow us around, I think, just maybe, they're doing it intentionally.

Sounds good, until you realize some people don't read chat. That's why I think kicking is the way to go in those "clear" situations. We really don't need to have more GM intervention than we need to. You can try reporting if you think they're trying to not get kicked by going into combat, but that's about where I draw the line.

Now, if they do interact in chat, then there is no excuse for not using tank stance or not having a job stone.

[SturmChurro]

Sounds good, until you realize some people don't read chat. That's why I think kicking is the way to go in those "clear" situations. We really don't need to have more GM intervention than we need to. You can try reporting if you think they're trying to not get kicked by going into combat, but that's about where I draw the line.

Now, if they do interact in chat, then there is no excuse for not using tank stance or not having a job stone.

This is exactly why it's so easy to grief in this game, and players are doing it. As long as they aren't interacting in chat, or admitting to what they are doing, there is nothing that can be done about them. They can intentionally wipe an entire raid party, they may even put "oops!", "my bad", in chat to cover themselves, and they will have players coming out of the woodwork to defend them!

[linayar]

This is exactly why it's so easy to grief in this game, and players are doing it. As long as they aren't interacting in chat, or admitting to what they are doing, there is nothing that can be done about them. They can intentionally wipe an entire raid party, they may even put "oops!", "my bad", in chat to cover themselves, and they will have players coming out of the woodwork to defend them!

You're free to believe what you want about people in general, but personally, as I don't see these types of situations happening often, I can't support trying to make this some kind of a reportable offense just because there are people who act like that. Again, we already have the tools to help us with who we play with.

Or rather, I think the worst offenders would already be covered by the rule.

[SturmChurro]

You're free to believe what you want about people in general, but personally, as I don't see these types of situations happening often, I can't support trying to make this some kind of a reportable offense just because there are people who act like that. Again, we already have the tools to help us with who we play with.

Or rather, I think the worst offenders would already be covered by the rule.

Oh, it should be reportable. Actually it is reportable, they just have to admit to it in chat. It becomes bannable only when they prove intent. It is easy to tell, let's be real, but a player or GM still cannot prove intent. I just think it's hilarious how many players in this game will defend this sort of behavior. So many players of this game are underperforming that nobody wants to chance an innocent new or learning, disabled, whatever player in the crossfire.

[linayar]

a player or GM still cannot prove intent.

And that's the point.

I just think it's hilarious how many players in this game will defend this sort of behavior. So many players of this game are underperforming that nobody wants to chance an innocent new or learning, disabled, whatever player in the crossfire.

Not putting up a tank stance as a main tank or not using a job stone is more severe than simply underperforming, and there is a fine line for some people to what they will tolerate.

[SturmChurro]

And that's the point.

Not putting up a tank stance as a main tank or not using a job stone is more severe than simply underperforming, and there is a fine line for some people to what they will tolerate.

You know what the most ridiculous part of all my arguments in this thread are? I am arguing in general! I might grumble every so often, but I have a very high tolerance for these players! I don't leave unless an instance literally cannot be completed; unless the entire rest of the party leaves, I will stay with the remaining players. If the healer leaves, and even if the DPS players are objectively underperforming, I will pull groups one by one and sacrifice myself over and over so we can slowly progress in the dungeon instead of waiting around. Nor do I EVER kick players, unless they are actually AFK or offline.

Now, that my humble bragging, and added context is over: I choose to tolerate such players, but I recognize when someone is doing it intentionally. Though, as someone brought it up on the last page, I should add, the one thing I have zero tolerance for is the sheer amount of mentors underperforming. These same mentors encouraging bad play. I may have a tolerance, but you know what I don't do? Encourage bad play like so much of this playerbase - which is the focal point of this thread. There is a problem in this community, that allows for griefers, or players to NEVER improve. As if there is no issue wasting other player's time.