Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[SenorPatty]

If you legit have to kick people every day, I would say you're the problem. I pretty much never have to kick people and I do everything through DF with whatever randos the game gives me.

That's what I'm thinking as well. Back in sb, i used to run df roulettes with some raiders from my fc back then and rarely did we run into players being detrimental to the run or sub performing badly. They just used regular rotations, they used most of their job kit, nothing optimal but even that was more than enough. Today, nothing's really changed from those times.

Something is not being said or admitted from those people who have bad luck every day or run into terribad skilled players everyday. Like honestly, every day man? If that's true, my condolences to that person's headstate. Imagine selecting a roulette and already dreading with disappointment and having votekick on speedial

[Vahlnir]

That's what I'm thinking as well. Back in sb, i used to run df roulettes with some raiders from my fc back then and rarely did we run into players being detrimental to the run or sub performing badly. They just used regular rotations, they used most of their job kit, nothing optimal but even that was more than enough. Today, nothing's really changed from those times.

Something is not being said or admitted from those people who have bad luck every day or run into terribad skilled players everyday. Like honestly, every day man? If that's true, my condolences to that person's headstate. Imagine selecting a roulette and already dreading with disappointment and having votekick on speedial

Yeah. Honestly, the worst groups I've had recently have been in World of Darkness. It's messy at the start but improves as the raid goes on. I'm of the opinion that, with a roulette, it doesn't need to be pretty. It just has to work. As long as the clear happens in about a half an hour to 45 minutes depending on the content I consider it a success. Beyond that I guess my patience begins to wear thin, but I never really say anything in game. "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Advice for life right there. Admittedly, I'm a bit less inclined to follow that advice on the forums. It's like the Wild West around here where, sometimes, you have to give as much and as good as you get....without being banned of course.

[Awha]

As someone that uses the vote kick feature on the regular, generally I think people are over thinking the reasons as to why people kick and focus too much on the personal standard of what you view as legitimate kicks.

Some of you clearly are more patient then many of us who use the coke kick feature on the regular. Sure I could be more patient and understanding but weird thing about the vote kick environment here, normally if the tank or healer start the kick one other person will always click yes. So why not use that to that your advantage.

In the end getting removed is not the end of the world no timer they can requeue.

My standards vary on my mood, our FC once silently kicked someone from MSQ roulette so we could skip the cutscenes. In the end personally a legit kick is one that passes even if it is petty or silly. I have kicked healers for not doing damage, tanks pulling small etc. . . It has little to do with their skill and more so to do with what I find personally enjoyable. As mentioned before this game gives very little reason to care about strangers in group content, and certainly does very little to establish a reason to respect the time of others.

In the end sometimes some players just do not want to play with other players. Sure we could use PF but why bother when vote kick is a thing.

[Vinupra-Rosa]

"If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Advice for life right there. Admittedly, I'm a bit less inclined to follow that advice on the forums. It's like the Wild West around here where, sometimes, you have to give as much and as good as you get....without being banned of course.

Preach! Too many people don't, sadly.

My standards vary on my mood, our FC once silently kicked someone from MSQ roulette so we could skip the cutscenes.

This is bannable. You've basically abused the kick function here - - and if that someone you kicked bothered to report you, this is actionable. If this was after the change where MSQ roulette cutscenes were no longer skippable, the 'skip cutscenes' bit counts as abuse and is also reportable. So one or two bannable actions in one go.

You're also advocating for unfair/invalid kicks in general, which is.... why.

In the end getting removed is not the end of the world no timer they can requeue.

As mentioned before this game gives very little reason to care about strangers in group content, and certainly does very little to establish a reason to respect the time of others.

Not everyone has all day to queue, and queues can get long sometimes. A run taking 4-6 minutes longer for you isn't as bad as the other person having to requeue... which can take up to 20 minutes, or be as short as 1. It's about being a decent person.

Some of you clearly are more patient then many of us who use the coke kick feature on the regular. Sure I could be more patient and understanding but weird thing about the vote kick environment here, normally if the tank or healer start the kick one other person will always click yes. So why not use that to that your advantage.

...and certainly does very little to establish a reason to respect the time of others.

TOS certainly does care about abuse, however.

[Awha]

Preach! Too many people don't, sadly.



This is bannable. You've basically abused the kick function here - - and if that someone you kicked bothered to report you, this is actionable. If this was after the change where MSQ roulette cutscenes were no longer skippable, the 'skip cutscenes' bit counts as abuse and is also reportable. So one or two bannable actions in one go.

You're also advocating for unfair/invalid kicks in general, which is.... why.




Not everyone has all day to queue, and queues can get long sometimes. A run taking 4-6 minutes longer for you isn't as bad as the other person having to requeue... which can take up to 20 minutes, or be as short as 1. It's about being a decent person.




TOS certainly does care about abuse, however.

In the end ToS can say a lot but with how GM's seems to focus on in game evidence not much they can do regarding silent kicks, also I suspect for the most part people really do not take the time to report.

As you said sure it may be banable and if I do get banned it is on me. Though even so I will always advocate for more liberal use of the vote kick feature. If you run into a player that just does not mesh instead of sucking it up or leaving try and remove the person in question worst that happens it does not pass then you can make the choice to suck it up or leave. Best case they are removed from the group.

In the end I often do not voke it slow tanks or non dps heals or non AoE dps because it would make the run quicker. The run would be quicker if I just sucked it up and played. I generally kick some people cause I just do not find it enjoyable to heal single pulls or generally like seeing a healer stand around between heals.

It is a video game, I do not think it is wrong to put my own enjoyment above another's. As mentioned this game gives very little reason to care about the strangers you queue with. Hell even in the end I could also say they do not value my time for standing around between heals, or doing small pulls when the healer asks for larger pulls when the reality is tanking 3 mobs is no different from tanking a large group. AoE and use cooldowns.

It is all about perspective. That is what makes the vote kick feature great if point of views do not match just let the group choose. You may see it as abuse but if it passes why should I group be forced to deal with a player they viewed as right for the group. Wouldn't it be more toxic to force the others to play with said player because they should be more understanding? Reality is some people just do not get along does not make them a bad person for not wanting to play with another player.

[SenorPatty]

It's not kicks in themselves that gets me scratching my head.

It's the everyday or almost everyday kick.

I mean, I've kicked but can't say it's a regular occurrence in my week. Outside of technical hangups (afk/offline) and bad behaviour (harassment/griefing), I just don't have that short fuse or the terribad players everyday to get much use of it.

[Caurcas]

I put my all into everything I do, thanks for the implications though!

If you are having problems with everyone then it is time to analyze yourself, because it's you who is then turning around and saying "it's the other guy that's the problem" if the case is that you are having a problem every time

Well for one, it's not everyone. It's about half. Second, it is the other player's problem if they are dead weight to the other 3/7/23 people. Third, if I torn into rando paste eaters as hard as I tear into myself I'd have been ToS'd a long time ago. More often then not these days if a run goes south I just leave, given the other decent players a free way out and the offending one stuck waiting. A 30 minute penalty is better than carrying a player who willingly chooses to suck the fun out of all the players around them.

[Krotoan]

It's not kicks in themselves that gets me scratching my head.

It's the everyday or almost everyday kick.

I mean, I've kicked but can't say it's a regular occurrence in my week. Outside of technical hangups (afk/offline) and bad behaviour (harassment/griefing), I just don't have that short fuse or the terribad players everyday to get much use of it.

Completely agree.
I think I can remember all 3 of the actual kicks I've initiated in light parties and most of the rest were all offlines or just outright AFK cruisers in larger duties. I've played the game for its entire life so far. I remember when duty finder wasn't even a thing. I've run dungeons with people with severely underleveled gear and I don't think I've ever had more than one in a party. All of the people I've actively noticed this about have either apologized and given passable reasons (sometimes you actually do forget to buy stuff for your alts) or in 2 cases (2 of the 3 kicks) gotten extremely toxic about it. The last kick was a healer who joined Aurum Vale and for the life of him could not keep up with the heals on ANY pull. We tried very hard to carry him because he was so apologetic but in the end we could not manage the damage on all the debuff fights, we agreed to kick him (even he acquiesced) and advised where to gear up.

So out of enough DFs to level every single job to 80 and constantly keep in current Tomestones... I've had a handful of "baddies". How in the world have I been lucky enough to avoid this "half" of the playerbase who seemingly will be in almost every single DF?


Seems .. like a personal standards thing.

You want standards? This is what party finder is for. Make your own parties or don't complain about the ones you pushed a button and that was it for.

DF is for helping randoms and the rewards are for the time and effort it may take. Lucky is when you get a full veteran run that shaves more than half the time off the usual. Normal is 15-20 mins. There is a wide world of gamers out there and while you don't owe them anything, they can claim the same. The only experience you have control over is your own.

[LianaThorne]

Been in FF for almost a year, have never initiated a vote kick and have only ever seen one happen in an alliance raid because one of our members was an obvious troll. Otherwise, everything has been hunky dory and I've never had a dungeon take longer than it should. Even when I am doing more DPS than one or both of the DPS members (I heal main), the dungeon still gets done in time and the tank and I help the DPS on the way to improve. If you're not a complete dick about bringing up shit to people, most are genuinely fine with accepting help.

Silently kicking people without even telling them why is griefing and it kind of blows my mind how you expect the same person to not be demotivated by that or confused as to why they were removed. If someone is fucking up, open your mouth and tell them. If they put up a fuss and you are sure you spoke to them in a POLITE manner, then boot them out for it. Silent kicks are a wimps move.

The issue at hand isn't that people are shit, it's that there are different levels of experience and how much time someone can put into playing FF. Some people work full time/have multiple jobs and can only play for a couple hours on the weekend. Some people have families and can only sneak in an hour at night before they have other responsibilities. Some people are in college and play when they're not drowning in coursework. Like, recognize that other people have lives. This will absolutely effect how well someone performs in group content.

Also, if anyone seriously expects me to believe that we are in a hive mind and newbies/casuals should be automatically thrown into the game with knowledge that they need to look up rotation charts or whatever else, you've been playing FF for too long and need to take a break.

When I first joined, I didn't even know a rotation existed. Yes, it's not hard for EXPERIENCED people who are AWARE that these things exist to look up rotations or build guides or whatever else you want to use, however, this was my first real MMO experience and I didn't. I'm sure EVERYONE in this thread was there at one point in time. I learned everything I know now through dungeons and NOT BEING KICKED while I figured it out. I also took advice from people in dungeons, literally how I got over my first time healing Aurum Vale. I did not even start looking up rotations until about 2 months ago because that's when I wanted to get heavy into end-game raiding and LEARNED THEY EVEN EXISTED.

Ya'lls expectations for people are beyond high. This isn't a game filled with 100% hardcore players who have played multiple MMOs since they first could use a computer and the game will never attempt to wall off one type of player from the other (outside of savage/ultimate imo). Recognize that other people exist who aren't like you and your needs don't come above anyone else's. How about, instead of kicking the person, you leave the party and requeue. Let the 3 people who weren't putting up a fuss continue on and you jump around till you find something cozy. You're wasting the other people's time at that point searching for your perfect party member.

[Awha]

Been in FF for almost a year, have never initiated a vote kick and have only ever seen one happen in an alliance raid because one of our members was an obvious troll. Otherwise, everything has been hunky dory and I've never had a dungeon take longer than it should. Even when I am doing more DPS than one or both of the DPS members (I heal main), the dungeon still gets done in time and the tank and I help the DPS on the way to improve. If you're not a complete dick about bringing up shit to people, most are genuinely fine with accepting help.

Silently kicking people without even telling them why is griefing and it kind of blows my mind how you expect the same person to not be demotivated by that or confused as to why they were removed. If someone is fucking up, open your mouth and tell them. If they put up a fuss and you are sure you spoke to them in a POLITE manner, then boot them out for it. Silent kicks are a wimps move.

The issue at hand isn't that people are shit, it's that there are different levels of experience and how much time someone can put into playing FF. Some people work full time/have multiple jobs and can only play for a couple hours on the weekend. Some people have families and can only sneak in an hour at night before they have other responsibilities. Some people are in college and play when they're not drowning in coursework. Like, recognize that other people have lives. This will absolutely effect how well someone performs in group content.

Also, if anyone seriously expects me to believe that we are in a hive mind and newbies/casuals should be automatically thrown into the game with knowledge that they need to look up rotation charts or whatever else, you've been playing FF for too long and need to take a break.

When I first joined, I didn't even know a rotation existed. Yes, it's not hard for EXPERIENCED people who are AWARE that these things exist to look up rotations or build guides or whatever else you want to use, however, this was my first real MMO experience and I didn't. I'm sure EVERYONE in this thread was there at one point in time. I learned everything I know now through dungeons and NOT BEING KICKED while I figured it out. I also took advice from people in dungeons, literally how I got over my first time healing Aurum Vale. I did not even start looking up rotations until about 2 months ago because that's when I wanted to get heavy into end-game raiding and LEARNED THEY EVEN EXISTED.

Ya'lls expectations for people are beyond high. This isn't a game filled with 100% hardcore players who have played multiple MMOs since they first could use a computer and the game will never attempt to wall off one type of player from the other (outside of savage/ultimate imo). Recognize that other people exist who aren't like you and your needs don't come above anyone else's. How about, instead of kicking the person, you leave the party and requeue. Let the 3 people who weren't putting up a fuss continue on and you jump around till you find something cozy. You're wasting the other people's time at that point searching for your perfect party member.

If the vote passes isn't that the will of the group? I get what you are saying if the vote does not pass then the person has a choice to make leave or deal with it. Though if it passes how is that in the wrong?

Expectations are irrelevant since they are subjective only objective factor is did the vote pass or not. No players has the responsibility to educate or inform another player how play the game.

Difference of play style is has been a valid reason for removal. Silent kicks are often just that.