"Play XIV if(cont)" and"you have a responsibility to" are not statements that coexist

[linayar]

That is the thing I think most people have the standard due to the dated mindset SE has towards parsing. If that is your metric cool I strongly disagree that clearing the content should be the defining metric. Personally the idea of getting carried does rub me the wrong way. Also it has nothing to be with extremes for me being rude is not toxic I know for others it is though in my eyes they are not synonymous to be toxic

You keep using that word, dated, but I don't think you've established why SE's mindset is dated. It may be too extreme to your liking, but that alone doesn't make it dated, especially when there is also support for such a mindset in the community.

But in a way, you're right that the game does (and I would say should) influence the standard by which the players judge others. If a game does not provide an official damage parsing, then the players should not be using that as a metric unless the content itself enforces it, such as via enrage mechanic.

That said, the game allows for creating your own party, and there is a certain freedom there where you can set your own standard to a degree that may go beyond the game's own. But if a party doesn't care, then it is what it is.

[linayar]

Toxic generally in my view has been watered down as time went on. It appears now for some the mere perception of rudeness is a enough to be seen as toxic.

...

Though overall a rude person is not necessarily a toxic person or will be a toxic person. Telling someone to never queue for content again because they were a legit waste of space in my eyes is the better option instead of saying nothing and letting that person go on to think they did a good job. That is how I got into hardcore raiding back in WoW. I was a player that operated on the mindset I cleared the content so I am good. Until I got called out for being a dog shit player and was told to kill myself or as they put it go die in a cancer fire. The persons comments did hurt but it also got me thinking why did they say such things what could I have done to cause someone to get that upset. So I asked around looked up guides and damn I was playing my class all wrong. This was an eye opener, I went all that time thinking I was playing fine cause I cleared content.

To me being blunt like that is one of the nicer actions a gamer could do. Cause they did not have to say anything and if they had who knows how long I would have kept going on like that being carried by groups wasting the time of others because of my own ignorance.

Guess in the end I think people just need to get some thicker skin if they think being rude is toxic or a degree of toxic.

Being toxic is generally associated with being harmful, and being rude is generally considered socially harmful. Being around a rude person is not a pleasant experience for most people. That environment becomes toxic if left unchecked.

End of the day a factual statement should not be seen as toxic sure the tone itself could be seen as rude but that does not negate what was said or better yet should not negate what was said.

It's not about negating any factual statement. It is about factual statement not negating toxic behavior/comment.

In this game if you point out to someone that they have room to improve or mention how low their damage is compared to other players with similar gear and job especially after a clear outside of a static many will say it does not matter cause the content was cleared. Even on the forums like in that talea of the duty finder or in NN you will see people defend poor play by coming up with a bunch of reasons as to why someone may be playing poorly.

In this case, both are factual statements. Fact: people have room to improve. Also fact: they can still clear content without improving.

This is one aspect I enjoy in other games the reason behind why someone is playing poorly is irrelevant to many, fact remains they were playing like dog shit and success probably would have been still been possible if the person was dead on the floor. Though I agree it is a problem with fight design and part of the reason I rarely pug. I get I have that competitive nature that does not mesh well with the causal player base and I get SE designed normal and
EX to a degree in terms of E
encounters to be cleared by the largest number of possible players.

I do wish they made the game harder across the board I would kill for mythic + style content in FFXIV.

I can understand if you're frustrated about this, but this game is what it is. In the extreme case, even the contents that should've encouraged improvement have been dealt with by groups who sell clears for those who really want it without improving on their play.

[LisSquid]

I've already said this in an earlier post but: parser data is not needed in the majority of the content in this game. Hell, even EX content doesn't really need the data.

Tying in so much of my hatred of healer and encounter design in this game: you know someone messed up in content because they die or wipe the group. There's very little in the high end that can effectively be carried (outside of being outgeared).

One of the reasons people feel fear of carries, imho, is how prevalent they are on WoW. A good healer and solid dps can carry several people, who are otherwise dead weight, below mythic. FFXIV has too many one shot mechanics and not enough sustain damage to pull that off (not here to debate these, but as the topic of WoW and carries had come up, I thought I would mention as someone who used to sell runs in WoW).

So that data isn't really useful unless you're specifically progressing content in your static or for personal use. It's very easy to understand what your party members are doing wrong.. just by looking at them. Hell, most jobs have buffs to maintain and you can track them on the party list. Also when party buffs go out of sync. Also when you see visual ques fall off players.. lots and lots of data already available to us in the game

[Awha]

I do not think being around assholes is inherently harmful or will turn toxic. Granted I play classic WoW so playing with assholes is enjoyment for me. For some it may seem unpleasant experience for me it brings me great joy. Though reason I say SE approach is dated is because they are operating on the concept scorched Earth mindset is the only way to go about things. They have this weird approach when it comes to their stance on combating what they view as toxic or inappropriate behavior. Be it PvP chat, rmt and not letting people friend alts, or lack of parsing because people will abuse it. This mindset of letting the few bad apples ruin it for everyone is dated in my opinion. They should just punish as the reports come in, instead of whelp sorry people suck so you cannot have nice things.

In end I get this is the game and that is part of the reason I maintain subs to many games. With that being said though I still think it is fair to not like the general direction the community has towards player accountability. Sure we do not need a parse to see someone is dead weight but at times it is just quicker and easier to just show someone how much they suck in that moment. Sure one can explain why. Though in the end as stated this is why I mostly play with friends cause personally I have ran into far too many players that are perfectly fine with we cleared it is okay that it just does not mesh with me personally. It is a different story if they are trying and are willing to improve. It is just other cases that rub me the wrong way.

[linayar]

I do not think being around assholes is inherently harmful or will turn toxic. Granted I play classic WoW so playing with assholes is enjoyment for me. For some it may seem unpleasant experience for me it brings me great joy. Though reason I say SE approach is dated is because they are operating on the concept scorched Earth mindset is the only way to go about things. They have this weird approach when it comes to their stance on combating what they view as toxic or inappropriate behavior. Be it PvP chat, rmt and not letting people friend alts, or lack of parsing because people will abuse it. This mindset of letting the few bad apples ruin it for everyone is dated in my opinion. They should just punish as the reports come in, instead of whelp sorry people suck so you cannot have nice things.

Well, I think that's the point. Toxic behavior creates a toxic environment, so a few "bad apples" will indeed ruin it for the rest as they become contaminated. Thus, a "scorched earth" policy might be needed.

[Penthea]

One of the reasons people feel fear of carries, imho, is how prevalent they are on WoW. A good healer and solid dps can carry several people, who are otherwise dead weight, below mythic. FFXIV has too many one shot mechanics and not enough sustain damage to pull that off (not here to debate these, but as the topic of WoW and carries had come up, I thought I would mention as someone who used to sell runs in WoW).

You are certainly correct that this game has far more one shot mechanics than WoW does. Not only that but often in this game things that don't kill you do punish you with a vuln debuff which means the next mistake could kill you, or a damage down that decreases your dps. I was quite surprised by this when I first started playing because I was so used to seeing mechanics like that almost only in the hardest content in the WoW. Whereas in FFXIV it's normal to see them everywhere.

As a healer I have found that I need to carry people far less often in FFXIV than I did in WoW. Because individual mechanics can be quite punishing if you don't dodge people are more careful. Whereas in WoW quite often I was expected to heal a dps standing in fire even if they only needed to take one step to get out. Sure what did it matter to them if they didn't die? They didn't get one shot and got no damage down or vuln stacks. This didn't always end well for them though because if I had to prioritise the tank or myself they sometimes died.

I'm not saying healing is easier or harder in either game, it's just different. WoW has far less one shot mechanics but it has significantly more sustained damage periods often with cleansing required whereas FFXIV's damage is very bursty and high but rarely needs frequent cleansing. However FFXIV's very bursty high damage paired with the risk of vuln and/or damage down stacks means players are naturally more careful about where they stand. No one wants to die, and no one likes getting a damage down.

And really I think people should accept the fact that they're going to be carrying someone to some degree very often. We all have our weaknesses and everyone messes up sometimes. Personally I'm happy as long as I don't need to break my back to carry people. I don't mind working a little bit harder to make up for someone's performance. Not everyone is a great player and that's okay. You don't need to be a great player to do the majority of the content in the game. It's enough for me if a person's performance is adequate for what we're doing. If they parse grey and it's causing no problems then I don't care.

[Awha]

Well, I think that's the point. Toxic behavior creates a toxic environment, so a few "bad apples" will indeed ruin it for the rest as they become contaminated. Thus, a "scorched earth" policy might be needed.

That is the point that is dated we have tools to report those that violate the ToS. If someone is an asshole while using a parser report them and let the GM's sort it out, if someone is being toxic in chat report them and let GM's sort it out do not remove chat from PvP altogether.

It is unnecessary, imo and giving players better tools and open availability that allow them to improve I think would be a great benefit to the overall health of the community. Since as some said it may not be a lack of desire but a general lack of ingame feedback as to how one is performing.

Having enrage timers without parsing is weird to me. Granted I get things are different in Japan a group will either succeed together or fail to together from what I have been told generally they do not remove the problem player they either work with them to clear the content or disband the group. Though they probably will put said player on a black list or something afterwards. While I have never had to remove someone from content due to not being able to meet enrage timers since I normally run with my static I have been in discord when my friends have and it is always a silent kick no reason given cause they are afraid if getting reported. This mindset of being afraid of telling someone how they are performing is weird to me sure misinformation regarding the ToS and such things is the main factor but this general fear of parsing also does not help.

The grey area is nice and all but it is the lazy way to go about it. Either enforce it 100% or allow it 100% if they want an all or nothing approach in terms of the ToS I wish they would just enforce it uniformly.

[linayar]

This mindset of being afraid of telling someone how they are performing is weird to me sure misinformation regarding the ToS and such things is the main factor but this general fear of parsing also does not help.

This overreaction is a user-created problem. The ToS does not prohibit you from helping others to do better. And if people cannot come to an agreement on how to work through their problem in order to achieve a common goal, then it is better to disband (or kick if one side is in the majority).

Telling people they're a "waste of space" and should "uninstall the game" or "not queue" is what the ToS prohibit. Whatever your opinion is, you either work it out with them, kick, disband, or quit the group yourself without resorting to being rude or toxic.

[Awha]

This overreaction is a user-created problem. The ToS does not prohibit you from helping others to do better. And if people cannot come to an agreement on how to work through their problem in order to achieve a common goal, then it is better to disband (or kick if one side is in the majority).

Telling people they're a "waste of space" and should "uninstall the game" or "not queue" is what the ToS prohibit. Whatever your opinion is, you either work it out with them, kick, disband, or quit the group yourself without resorting to being rude or toxic.

I already said it is created via misinformation from the player base but the point still stands the the fear of parsing feeds into it. End of the day I understand how it works within the game I just do not agree with it. Personally being rude should not be a reason to not listen to take personal accountability for their actions. Not to say the person who was rude was not at fault but in the end from my own experience it is often very rare where someone is rude to another player without some reasoning behind it. Sure we may not agree on the reason but in end imo something always leads up to the out burst. I get this is victims blaming to a degree but if someone tells another person to uninstall or is rude especially if it happens often to the person then at that point they are part of the problem.

I get why people call out others and I get why people do not. I understand that some are cool with carrying others and others may get annoyed with it.

In the ene we call run into assholes I get people want to try and create a safe space from such people but to me that is unrealistic.

I get how things work here but yeah I can still not be a huge fan of it and think that they game would be better off if they toned down this fear of parsing.

Short of sweet I guess if someone tells you to uninstall or you are a waste of space before discounting what they are saying as being a troll or toxic maybe take to heart and see what could have lead to such a response in the first place instead of discounting it altogether.

[linayar]

Personally being rude should not be a reason to not listen to take personal accountability for their actions.

I can understand this, but the reality is that's not how people will always work, and as a business, SE will tailor their game to how people react rather than the ideal that you want them to react.

So the solution on people's end is to not be rude. You may still get a negative reaction, but you'll likely also get more positive reaction. And at the end of the day, kick/disband/leave is still an option.