6.0 Story Speculations

[Theodric]

Ultimately it just comes back to the whole 'matter of perspective' angle. Naturally people are going to favour certain characters over others and either sympathise or condemn them based on their individual circumstances and motivations. Ultimately I'm less interested in the moral side of things and more invested in having a neat story with plenty of nuance to it.

I'm currently rather lukewarm to Venat and Hydaelyn - that may very well change as the story advances, we learn more about both and how sorrowful or gleeful Venat/Hydaelyn happen to be in regards to the Sundering itself.

I'm also inclined to believe that Venat was chosen as a name for a reason. Things won't likely play out exactly the same way as they did in FFXII but...the Venat in Ivalice was very much a morally grey rather than pure and righteous figure. If that extends to Venat in FFXIV as well? Then count me in!

That aside, I just find the whole 'Benevolent Mother Goddess' thing to be a rather dull trope. Others are free to think otherwise, of course - but it just doesn't do anything for me personally. Especially with not how far some people take it to the point where Hydaelyn is almost revered as an actual deity figure.

I'm fully expecting the Zodiark and Hydaelyn conflict to not be clear cut, at any rate. There's almost certain more to it, including additional twists/missing puzzle pieces.

[Anonymoose]

that may very well change as the story advances, we learn more about both and how sorrowful or gleeful Venat/Hydaelyn happen to be in regards to the Sundering itself.

I'm also inclined to believe that Venat was chosen as a name for a reason. Things won't likely play out exactly the same way as they did in FFXII but...the Venat in Ivalice was very much a morally grey rather than pure and righteous figure. If that extends to Venat in FFXIV as well? Then count me in!

This is kind of refreshing, actually. I feel like a lot of what I see is, "If an antagonist-coded character commits atrocity, we should assume it was well-intentioned, and if anything suggests so, we should see them as good, actually. But if an ally-coded character ever did anything that harmed anyone, it is unacceptable to see them as anything but an irredeemable monster ever again." Just iconoclasm of protagonist-coded characters for its own sake, lol.

My stance on Hydaelyn has been pretty static this whole time. I give the benefit of the doubt that She loves you, She tried her best, and She has flaws, which fits with the whole "She's not a real god, but if She's not, what is? And is She the closest we'll ever know?" thing. But when the war stared and the world I knew and loved was on the line, She was the only one in my corner, and that ain't nothin'.

Looking back I find it interesting that I was always much more skeptical of Elidibus than I was Zodiark himself.
Curious how that'll play out in the end.

I suspect more moral relativism. Yoshida's the one who said (in character) that the Moon hates the Star and wants to doom Her children, but if She's got our back and He doesn't, does it change much if He has good reason to feel as He does? I didn't ask to be born, and I'd sure like to keep on living.

One thing I do question in Venat's judgement is: "Did she know the Convocation were tempered?"

I would assume not. This was the first time they made anything that powerful in that way, a dozen people's power lent to the the core of an Ancient soul, right? This might have been the first time they ever confronted tempering. She might have held the convocation in such high regard despite their "stubbornness" because she didn't know.

And if her followers were THE Twelve and manifested again somehow, that possibly explains the lack of exit strategy for her possibly-tempered friends sticking around for another two thousand years if the legends of the First Umbral Era are true.

[Theodric]

This is kind of refreshing, actually. I feel like a lot of what I see is, "If an antagonist-coded character commits atrocity, we should assume it was well-intentioned, and if anything suggests so, we should see them as good, actually. But if an ally-coded character ever did anything that harmed anyone, it is unacceptable to see them as anything but an irredeemable monster ever again." Just iconoclasm of protagonist-coded characters for its own sake, lol.

My stance on Hydaelyn has been pretty static this whole time. I give the benefit of the doubt that She loves you, She tried her best, and She has flaws, which fits with the whole "She's not a real god, but if She's not, what is? Is She the closest we'll eve know?" thing. But when the war stared and the world I knew and loved was on the line, She was the only one in my corner, and that ain't nothin'.

Honestly, up until Shadowbringers I never really considered Hydaelyn to be much more than a convenient plot device for the Warrior of Light's power. The reveal that Hydaelyn was, in fact, a Primal was quite intriguing to me.

My own approach is to split characters into one of three categories - namely protagonists, antagonists and villains. I only really care for the first two, as outright villains are just as boring to me as goody-two shoes who can never do any wrong ever. For me, it's about understanding the 'why' the various characters do that they do.

I also like the underdogs. I have a soft spot for Pureblood Garleans, for instance, because the idea of a race being unable to manipulate aether in a setting heavily reliant on it is pretty neat in my view. With that said, it's only the likes of Regula, Varis and Gaius that I root for. They're varying shades of grey and thus firmly 'antagonists' in my eyes. Whereas the likes of Valens and Zenos...have zero redeeming qualities and thus are, sadly, rather one note villains.

Though with that said, I don't consider villains with no redeeming qualities to always be terrible. Valens, as horrible as he was, didn't overstay his welcome and had some amusing scenes whereas Zenos lost me after far too many cutscenes of stagnant behaviour.

My taste in characters is pretty broad, I reckon. Aside from being fond of Regula, Varis and Gaius...I also quite like Fordola, Thancred, Y'shtola, Hien and Magnai...amongst others.

That extends to the Final Fantasy series as a whole. I'm just a whole lot more invested in the likes of Gabranth, Seifer, Edea, Beatrix, Cloud, Vincent and Larsa. So, yeah, Venat/Hydaelyn has the opportunity to change my opinion depending on where things go next.

I don't know if that clears things up, but it's getting late so I should probably sleep soon! Apologies if it's a bit rambly!

[Veloran]

I didn't ask to be born, and I'd sure like to keep on living.

So how does that make Hydaelyn, who both forced you to be (re)born and put you into a state of being where you'll ignorantly die thousands of times, "in your corner"? She literally enlisted WoL into her war without consent and lied to their face about the origins of the conflict.

[Anonymoose]

So how does that make Hydaelyn, who both forced you to be (re)born and put you into a state of being where you'll ignorantly die thousands of times, "in your corner"?

Thy Life is a riddle, to bear rapture and sorrow
To listen, to suffer, to entrust unto tomorrow
In one fleeting moment, from the Land doth life flow
Yet in one fleeting moment, for anew it doth grow
In the same fleeting moment thou must live, die and know

She literally enlisted WoL into her war without consent and lied to their face about the origins of the conflict.

This is just one place we differently exercise our interpretive inclinations.

Keep in mind that I can't detach my experiences in 1.0 from my assessment here; it inevitably colors my evaluation. Those experiences make it a lot more likely that to read into the story the implication that if you hear, "Hear, Feel, Think" and your response is "No, thank you." That's fine. You don't have to join Her cause. You don't have to listen to Her. Plenty of people walked away, ignored it, or never even realized they had it. Some fought with Her enemies. You can choose to never tell anyone you have the Echo and use it solely to cheat at poker and you'll face no consequences. You can attempt to axe Her emissary in the face and She'll still call you Her beloved child.

Regardless of what or who your soul once was, you were born into this world. You were given this choice. And, unfortunately for the preferences of some, as the protagonist of this game, you fight for Eorzea as it is. Not as it was 12,000 years ago, not as it could have been, but as it is today and the the best it could be tomorrow. We fight for the Scions, and the Alliance leaders, and everyone with the willingness to be those who walk before to lead those who walk after, and (so far) She validates that constantly; we can't help that part, lol.

I'm just doubful Naoki Yoshida intended that journey to be interpreted as "you spent 10 years being the suckered slave of a duplicitous false god" when in the midst of the greatest chance he had to set that narrative up, Shadowbringers, he didn't even let you wield Darkness yourself (even after it was the entire theme of the trailer) when it was the only thing that'd beat the Light. He had you use Hydaelyn's gift to absorb and negate the Light and then use it against Darkness. In the words of the wise Excalibeard, "The dude wouldn't let us play thief." What are the chances that guy's intended reading of the story is "Screw the Mothercrystal"?

It doesn't mean she's perfectly benevolent and has never made mistakes.

But summoned entities believe they are what they were summoned to be. She was summoned to see the new life as her precious children to protect forevermore. Did Hydaelyn lie to you any more than Ifrit or Garuda did when they acted as though the only narrative summoned into them was the Truth? And if we take into account that Hydaelyn's narrative might be flawed because of what She was meant to be, what of Zodiark?

In short: If Venat's position was "The planet belongs to life newly born, Zodiark is a threat." then Hydaelyn (probably, as far as we know) inherently sees you as "Her child" and is in your corner. And that is biased - I've been spraying #TeamHydaelyn tags on walls for years, lol.

I'm not even 100% confident She'll survive 6.0, I just don't expect to loathe Her.

[Veloran]

[INDENT][I]Thy Life is a riddle, to bear rapture and sorrow
To listen, to suffer, to entrust unto tomorrow
In one fleeting moment, from the Land doth life flow
Yet in one fleeting moment, for anew it doth grow
In the same fleeting moment thou must live, die and know

Yes, a nice song written long before the reality of what Hydaelyn is and what she's done was shown, and even it is a complete non-answer. Hydaelyn created a world of fragile mortality full of illness, war, death, and a cycle of perpetual ignorance where people repeat their mistakes over and over again across lifetimes they can't remember. It may be she had a very good reason to do this, even simply to preserve the stability of the star and ensure some form of life persisted, but to simply say "It's a riddle, find your own answer and pass it down once you die" is just the height of disingenuity. That was an acceptably vague god-answer back in ARR, it no longer is because Hydaelyn traded another world for what now exists, so something with more substance than what you'd find on the back of a philosophy 101 book is to be expected.

Keep in mind that I can't detach my experiences in 1.0 from my assessment here; it inevitably colors my evaluation. Those experiences make it a lot more likely that to read into the story the implication that if you hear, "Hear, Feel, Think" and your response is "No, thank you." That's fine. You don't have to join Her cause. You don't have to listen to Her. Plenty of people walked away, ignored it, or never even realized they had it. Some fought with Her enemies. You can choose to never tell anyone you have the Echo and use it solely to cheat at poker and you'll face no consequences.

You may be forgetting here the tidbit of lore that it's Hydaelyn herself who first awakens many people's Echoes. She does this whenever an Umbral Calamity seems on the horizon, to try and make a connection with people who can become Warriors of Light and take up her cause, and if these people do something vaguely heroic she then grants them crystals of light and entrusts them as her agents in the world. Even for people who awaken their Echoes on their own time, she's constantly broadcasting her message to immediately get them predisposed towards her.

we can't help that part

We can't help it because this is the world she created.

I'm just doubful Naoki Yoshida intended that journey to be interpreted as "you spent 10 years being the suckered slave of a duplicitous false god" when in the midst of the greatest chance he had to set that narrative up, Shadowbringers,

In what way was that narrative not set up in Shadowbringers? Shadowbringers established that Hydaelyn is a false god, that she lied to you about the conflict you're fighting for her, that she's done very debatable things in the past, that darkness is not evil and light is not good, and that Warriors of Light putting their blind faith in a force that presupposes it's own righteousness may just make them nothing but useful tools.

Yes, the idea seemingly shown in the trailer of WoL turning to darkness and destroying light was subverted - So why exactly do you think the idea shown in the Endwalker trailer, with WoL standing as the goodly Paladin apparently on the moon to destroy evil, won't be subverted in it's own right? We've already been told outright that Hydaelyn and Zodiark aren't good and evil.

She was summoned to see the new life as her precious children to protect forevermore.

Is that what she was summoned for? Zodiark was the one summoned as a Primal of salvation. Seems to me that Hydaelyn's purpose isn't protecting lives, but protecting the stability of the world.

Did Hydaelyn lie to you any more than Ifrit or Garuda did when they acted as though the only narrative summoned into them was the Truth?

Primals aren't automatons. Ramuh was able to look at the situation and conclude WoL was worth entrusting the protection of the Sylphs to, same for Alexander, Louisoix gave up on his task as Phoenix, even Yotsuyu let go of her spite at the end. Why should we think that Hydaelyn truly believed what she was saying instead of lying about it? And if she does really think of herself as a true god who justly excised the covetous darkness while using her own servants (as she explicitly compares to the Ascians serving Zodiark) to enact her will, why exactly should she be treated differently than any other Primal? I'm sure every other society that's summoned one has thought it was on their sides as well.

[Rosenstrauch]

He had you use Hydaelyn's gift to absorb and negate the Light and then use it against Darkness.

Just a minor correction here: This is the narrative the WoL (and the player) is fed early in Shadowbringers. But as Y'shtola hints at repeatedly over the course of the Rak'tika storyline, and finally confirms after Amh Araeng/Malikah's Well, this is not actually the case. The Blessing of Light has not actually helped the WoL to contain the Lightwardens' light at all, nor has it negated that light—it's still churning about inside of us, just like it had within every Lightwarden we've fought. It's only the strength of our soul that has kept it from breaking us—and our soul can't hold out on its own forever. And while Ryne, who inherited the power to manipulate that light from Minfilia's passing, can calm it down... she can't negate it either.

This is a bit of a recurring thing in Shadowbringers. The protagonists using well-intentioned lies and secrecy to manipulate the WoL/the player, the people of Norvrandt, and even each other. While the antagonist (Emet-Selch) does the same with the truth.

… This is actually part of the reason the Exarch catches so much flak among certain circles. Urianger answers for his part in lying to the WoL and keeping secrets from them, and the player is given the option to forgive him or order him not to lie again. But the Exarch is both the source of those lies and the reason he felt compelled to spread them, yet when it's time for him to answer for them... he doesn't. Oh, he certainly tries, but the player is forced to cut him off, with their options ranging from "We'll talk about this later"—which happens offscreen, I guess—to implicit forgiveness without him having to ask. It comes across as a double standard in how the characters are treated, particularly when later events summarize his actions as "trying to sacrifice himself" and acting like that was the objectionable part of his plan. Meanwhile, Minfilia (Ryne) and Minfilia (Warde) have their whole bit in Amh Araeng where both are trying to sacrifice themselves for the other's sake, and the WoL's behavior during that whole arc amounts to placid acceptance because it's what they want.

[BlitzAceRush]

The blessing dose play it's part though, in our showdown with Hades he questions if the wardens light has "won free?" only to curse that it is in fact her "infernal blessing" so in some form it is helping us, it's just not clear in what capacity, but in conjunction with our soul being stronger that most, the blessing is also doing something as well to aid in our ability to handle and weaponize the light.
It's clear the Exarch never expected us to be able to contain the light much less control it and without Ardbert we wouldn't have, but the blessing dose seem to be doing something here as well.

[Anonymoose]

Yes, a nice song written long before the reality of what Hydaelyn is and what she's done was shown,

I'm thinking more "it's the lore the writers are going back to to make sense of this" - the beginning is the end, they even used the Starshower.

We can't help it because this is the world she created.

And yet the reins of history are (more or less) in the hands of man whenever nobody's kicking Her in the shins. You said yourself she only does anything when an Umbral Calamity is on the horizon. When the Ascians aren't around She just goes to sleep and leaves us be. Like, I can get that compared to the lives the Ancients led, ours seem short and cruel. They also happen to look just like the lives we humans actually live. Regardless of its origin, the world we're fighting for in Hydaelyn's name is modeled on the one we can most identify with, Earth, because almost every story we've ever been told about what it means to be alive takes place here. Even the name "Eorzea" shares the same etymological root as "Earth".

I'm willing to wait to hear Her side of the story. It's not Her fault SE didn't write one before the last time she talked to us, lol.

In what way was that narrative not set up in Shadowbringers?

I'm suggesting it didn't set up the "you have no free will and the one thing we told you was good is bad" part very well, by having all of your antagonists have understandable motivations that are ultimately irrelevant in the "they need to die" consideration while not letting you, the hero, "taint yourself" in the slightest way by consorting with real Darkness even when it made sense to do so for the greater good. Hydaelyn may be flawed but if she was truly that despicable, that was the time to start building up to the crescendo.

Seems to me that Hydaelyn's purpose isn't protecting lives, but protecting the stability of the world.

I don't disagree, while I don't think those are mutually exclusive. But if this is meant to be a report to a point I made, I would ask, "Protect the stability of the world from... [who]? Because they intend to destabilize it by... [doing what]?

Primals aren't automatons. Ramuh was able to look at the situation and conclude WoL was worth entrusting the protection of the Sylphs to, same for Alexander, Louisoix gave up on his task as Phoenix, even Yotsuyu let go of her spite at the end. Why should we think that Hydaelyn truly believed what she was saying instead of lying about it? And if she does really think of herself as a true god who justly excised the covetous darkness while using her own servants (as she explicitly compares to the Ascians serving Zodiark) to enact her will, why exactly should she be treated differently than any other Primal?

Of these examples, Ramuh is described by Square Enix as being an oddity among primals whose true nature has yet to be explained. Moreover, he was imbued by his summoners with the traits of a wise judge who makes righteous decisions, and the Ascians were shocked he assented to the Warrior of Light. Alexander was summoned to be a perfect calculator and it, too, overcame its summoners' biases and doubled down on the Warrior of Light. Meanwhile Louisoix tells you Phoenix was "no true primal", and Yotusyu's change in demeanor was suggested by Zenos to be because she tempered herself during her own summoning and then it faded upon the death of that identity.

I'm not entirely confident at this point that Hydaelyn does think of Herself as the one true god. I think anyone actually tempered by her would. Hydaelyn Herself says only that she's "all made one," whatever that means. Meanwhile Elidibus and Lahabrea called Zodiark the one true god incessantly and I'm not sure if Zodiark Himself thinks so either. It's awkward that his heart did it also logically follows vis a vis the energy symbiosis thing.

Just a minor correction here:

"Negate" was a poor choice of words, I agree. "Contain the influence of" is closer to the connotation I intended.
You're correct to stress that were never going to cancel it out. (Thanks for helping with that, Emet!)

What I mean is, while early speculations of the mechanics don't quite pan out to be entirely accurate, is it not fair to say that without our gifts, our soul would not have been strong enough to accomplish the task? That the Echo / Blessing / Champion Factor's ability to make the walls of the soul more permeable and enhances its potential for strength is what made it possible? I was going to quote G'raha but the line I want seems to have fallen out of my pocket.

[Kesey]

So how does that make Hydaelyn, who both forced you to be (re)born and put you into a state of being where you'll ignorantly die thousands of times, "in your corner"? She literally enlisted WoL into her war without consent and lied to their face about the origins of the conflict.

This isn't necessarily true because we don't know what happened after she was summoned but before she sundered Zodiark and all existence.

As I've pointed out numerous times in the thread, there is panel in Rak'tika that specifically shows Zodiark and Hydaelyn together, as if there was a time they co-existed or were balanced before they were forced into a confrontation. I did not believe this was super important until the beginning of 5.4 when the WOL literally flashes back to look at that scene of them together. So evidence points to a missing event that caused the confrontation and most likely involved Azem as the WOL is focusing in on it literal opening prologue of the 6.0 lead up.

So we don't know if Azem/WOL was coerced into the war, or had to choose sides, or only stepped in to clean up the aftermath. You assume it was coercion because you literally haven't been given the answer yet.