6.0 Story Speculations

[Kesey]

One could argue that Elidibus was deliberately written in such a manner so that any additional lore bombs could be dropped not during Shadowbringers itself but in Endwalker. Furthermore, didn't Yoshi-P imply that there were two different endings proposed for 5.3 in a fairly recent interview? I swear, I read something along those lines...if that is indeed the case, then it's likely that something very different was planned for the other potential ending.

I'm also disinclined to consider Lahabrea to be 'crazy' so much as world weary in a similar manner to Emet-Selch. He just wanted to get the job done and Yoshi-P even compared himself to Lahabrea in an interview, stating that he was a hard worker. We need to remember, by the time we see the Ascians in the present day they had already long since tried to work with and alongside the Sundered and found them to be wanting. Only Emet-Selch and to an extent, Elidibus, appeared willing to try and reach some sort of tentative understanding whereas Lahabrea simply pushed ahead with his goal at the forefront. His main quirk appears to have been to change hosts too often, which backfired on him...but also proved effective given what we saw happen when he took over Thancred. Incidentally, out of the three Unsundered he was the biggest threat to the Warrior of Light and his allies. Then again, ARR and early HW were written much differently to what came after them.

I don't have links to either interview, sadly - though given how many around these parts are enthusiastic about archiving snippets of lore, maybe someone else can post them!

I believe Yoshi-p said, regarding the ending of 5.3, was that the revelations exposed in 5.3 would change the meaning of the ending in 5.2. 5.3 revealed that Elidibus was a primal after being sacrificed to be the heart of Zodiark. Going back to 5.2, this is exactly what Venat did for Hydaelyn. Knowing that Venat also says something along the lines of not being truly gone and returning in the form of their choosing, heavily implies that Venat is still alive as a primal of their choice somewhere.

Venat's existence weights pretty heavy on the msq because Venat can basically explain a lot of the missing information about the Ancients--many of the questions asked in this thread--to bring the story into line with the necessary history to end in a confrontation with Zodiark.

[Lauront]

Emet-Selch said his plan was to rejoin all sundered life into the Source and sacrifice it all.

That's not really in dispute. They're talking about the final stage of sacrifice that sparked the whole conflict.




In that respect, it is certainly not all unsundered life.

Hythlodaeus even vouched for Venat's motivation.

He does - that's not the point. The point is that she does not frame it that way at all and speaks of Zodiark not being a true solution to the problem, and that their current path would lead once more to their doom. The sacrifices to return the ancients dormant in Zodiark no doubt tie directly to this, but the question is, in what way? In an instrumental way or do they see the sacrifices themselves as "their doom"?

This comes down to how you want to interpret Venat. Because it can be seen as you explain above, or Venat and company can be seen to have had their hand forced into this situation of summoning Hydaelyn. If the convocation is tempered as Emet claims, then the value of debate and discussion is essentially out the window when in comes to a topic like Zodiark will kill us all eventually. The lack of ill will from Venat can be seen as pity not respect or pragmatics, because you'd feel bad for a person if they were tempered can could never have their mind changed.

We can speculate all day on what the meaning behind it is and come up with our own interpretations - including of how the ancients viewed tempering as a phenomenon in the first place; particularly for a group themselves summoning a Primal. There is also the possibility that the Convocation simply thought their proposed "solution" wasn't one at all and would lead to further problems down the line. Again, our understanding of tempering is expanding and there are clearly different ways in which Primals inflict it, and this is going to be so all the more so for a Primal with a controller/"heart".

The way they are wording things here is rather different to what you'd expect of them saying the group cannot be reasoned with at all - only that they would not countenance their proposed solution:



Similar in French (only translated bits in to avoid bloat):

= “Companions, thank you for assembling at the Anyder despite the circumstances.”

= “The summoning of Zodiark had the effect of calming the (calamity). And some see that the new order that it has given birth to flawless robustness.”

= “Unfortunately, we are more than ever at a loss. This artifice has only delayed the inevitable.”

= “I tried to convey this to the Council of fourteen, but my opinion was not taken into account.”

= “As for the member who left his seat vacant, I do not know whether his intention is to remain neutral until the end. In any case, our solicitations are always in vain.”

= “Venerable Venat, could you share your thoughts on this?”

= “It is futile to make attempts to approach the members of the Council. Like us, they want nothing but a prosperous future for our world.”

= “Instead, ask yourself whether you are ready to follow the path we have chosen, even if
it means you have to face them, as well as many of our fellow compatriots…”

= “If that's the case, then follow me and let's create a brake on this future together.”

= “To oppose the Light to the Shadows of Zodiark, we will give birth to… Hydaelyn.”

I will grant that it could turn out that they believed it was pointless to reason with them owing to tempering, but it's a stretch to say it's in any way aligned with the wording there.

Given Elidibus himself was confused on what the Convocation actually wanted, and he obviously did not receive any influence from Venat's group, I think this is more a case of everyone disagreeing with each other, and they happened to coalesce into two vague groups that continued to squabble among themselves. Maybe they started as being all polite and Amaurotine about it at first, but seeing how the Ascians we see in the present day apparently loathe each other, obviously it didn't last.

One of the major issues is that Emet-Selch is the only source of information on what the people of the Ancient world actually wanted, and we know how biased he is, as well as prone to leaving out rather important bits of information to serve his own purposes. Lahabrea had gone crazy (with considering Zodiark as the One True God), and Elidibus was senile. The other Ascians had been subordinate to the Unsundered (primarily the aforementioned Crazy Lahabrea), and once all the Unsundered were dead, the one example we see of Fandaniel decided to Kill Everything, ignoring the whole Rejoining business. At this point, it does seem like literally only Emet-Selch was on-board with the original plan of "Rejoin then sacrifice".

Elidibus returned to assist in resolving the dispute, as it was his role in the first place. Drawing inferences from the Ascians at present to how they saw each other back then is rather inapt, precisely because Emet was dismayed by the way their own memories and identities faded as his remained intact, and with the sundered Overlords, it comes down to how effectively the memory crystal restores their memories - it can be very effective as Mitron and Loghrif showed in the cutscene before Zodiark's statue, or as in Fandaniel's case, not too good, because his memory crystal is described as being faded (French for comparison). Either way, the Ascians are several thousand years divorced from the pre-sundering world.



Beyond that, the scene in question is appears to be from just before they summoned Hydaelyn, so while things may have deteriorated thence, it scarcely matters for the point of summoning.

On Emet's testimony, he may well be "biased" (as I have no doubt Hydaelyn herself is in turn), but his account of her group and their intentions is in fact reproduced in the footage held in Anamnesis Anyder. He also volunteered even more information than that through Hythlodaeus; while perhaps a supposed "accident", he could've easily snuffed him out and re-purposed the shade if he truly did not intend that information to be conveyed.

On Lahabrea, we have this, which Theodric alluded to, from Yoshi:

11. Elidibus once described Lahabrea as "unique" after taking a long pause to choose his words. Did he, like Emet-Selch, have less favorable judgement of their colleague in recent years while being too polite to say so?

Oda: I believe that Elidibus's feelings towards his colleagues and the other Ascians' feelings towards each other will be explored in the story itself. The plot has been submitted to Yoshida and he is revising it. Once it gets the green light, we'll explore it more.

Yoshida: This has close ties with the upcoming story so there's not much we can say today. There was a sort of respect between them, I believe, and if you look at Emet-Selch’s dialogue, he said Lahabrea would wear himself down. Lahabrea was a workaholic, like me. He works a lot and can seem crazy. It has a similar meaning there.

I think the short story does a good job of conveying that it was more down to recklessness than mere craziness:

I closed my eyes, letting out a measured breath, or what passed for one in the emptiness of the rift. He was right, of course. Lahabrea's boldness had only grown with the passing of ages─segueing inevitably into recklessness. Across many vessels and many worlds he blazed his trail, each mad leap forward leaving him that much more broken. Not satisfied with having brought about the Seventh Umbral Calamity, he labored needlessly to prolong it.

Was it his affinity for concepts of flame that made him so like the fire itself? From peerless Ifrita to that hopelessly immortal bird, his creations had burned bright and beautiful─as did he.

He should have known what becomes of the flame once all else is ash.

I opened my eyes to take in my brother's face, but the lips visible below his mask bore no expression. Would he never again show what he felt for us, as he once had so readily? Were those very sentiments long lost?

"What is it, Emet-Selch?"

"Nothing. I was only thinking how similar Lahabrea was to his creations."

"His creations?" I had little difficulty reading Elidibus's uncertainty this time. He couldn't remember. If his clenched fists were any indication, he shared my conclusion: yet another part of him had been lost. Ever since the day he had reappeared to us as the embodiment of "hope," time's tides had conspired to wash away what bits and pieces remained of the person he once was.

"Will you not look at your crystal?" I asked.

When Elidibus was still Elidibus and Lahabrea still Lahabrea, we had collected all of our memories of the Fourteen and committed them to crystal, that those who would take our seats one day might learn. Elidibus would, I was sure, find much within to help him remember─yet he shook his head.

"I am Elidibus. So long as I remember my duty, that is enough. Aught else I would only lose again in the course of this timeless struggle...and if these memories are truly so precious, pray do not ask that I forget them twice."

And again, from the French version...

Well, he was right. Lahabrea had long been the most restless, if not the most reckless of the three of us. He did not stop before anything to achieve his goal: journeys between worlds, transformations of all kinds…(A rushing ahead) that led him slowly but surely to his loss. Lately, he had been trying to cause an (umbral calamity), even though the last one had just taken place… under his impulse.

His temperament reminded me of the image of a fiery brazier, probably inspired by all those sublime entities of fire that he had born, whether it be the immortal bird of Ifritah, the spirit of the flames. At the zenith of his career, his own flame had been bright, it was beautiful - and, like any flame, it was doomed to extinguish after consuming everything.

Also I don't subscribe to the notion that simply because they may have had some lapse in their memory (Elidibus) or identity (Lahabrea), that everything they say is wrong as a result. You are of the view that Krile and Y'shtola are misguided for even questioning Hydaelyn, even after her rather peculiar (to be generous) account of the origin of the world, but might not a similar dose of scepticism be due in her direction, too?


All I will agree on at this point is that we're missing further information.

[Kesey]

snip.

Being stubborn and turning a deaf ear is the behavior of someone who cannot be reasoned with at all. And regarding the French version, if the opinion of a Venat follower is not taken into account, again it is because the convocation cannot be reasoned with at all.

So it is not a stretch within anyone's imagination (especially after Emet has confirmed it!) that the convocation was tempered to Zodiark and you know took the most basic tenant of their culture--debate and discussion--just disregarded what the Venat people had to say.

Hydaelyn was summoned by Venat and company out of desperation. If at any point they thought they could take another course of action, I'm sure they would have explored that avenue first. Even the appeals to Azem for help didn't get a response. What else were they supposed to do?

[Theodric]

Azem wasn't Tempered and Venat's repeated pleas were ignored by Azem as well. It's very likely that neither Zodiark or Hydaelyn were a perfect solution to the mess and that Azem sought out a different path to take.

It also falsely attributes Venat as the 'correct' path and that the Convocation should have simply rolled over and done whatever Venat asked of them.

I'd say the writers have been pretty clear in and out of the game itself that it's all just a matter of perspective and that both sides had valid reasons for doing what they were doing. Indeed, Venat showed no hostility towards the Convocation and explicitly stated that she understood that they were simply doing what they thought was best.

There's a lot of other elements to consider as well, of course - such as where, exactly, Venat gained the knowledge to bring forth Hydaelyn in the first place and whether or not the Sundering was a known risk and/or intentional.

I don't believe that either Zodiark or Hydaelyn are inherently 'good' or 'evil' in keeping with the consistent themes highlighted by Stormblood and Shadowbringers in particular. Indeed, I could easily see the Warrior of Darkness taking the 'hard path' and striving to bring about a sense of equilibrium.

[Anonymoose]

We were talking about during the ancient times...not now.

My question here is what does "ancient times" have anything to do with sundered at all? This part of the debate seems moot if nobody was sundered yet. The Convocation was just pushing "sacrifice people to Zodiark" as the fix for every problem and ignoring the people who questioned it, leading Venat's faction to believe that what was supposed to be a temporary measure was now as sure to doom them as the Final Days, assuming they had even found a permanent way to stop it in the first place.

At that point we're splitting hairs. If the solution is always "sacrifice people to Zodiark" - does it matter if they intend for it to be everyone or just end up there incidentally?

...Yet oh how the star had suffered. So many species lost. The land was blighted, the waters poisoned, and even the wind had ceased to blow. Once more did our people give of themselves to Zodiark. Another half of our race sacrificed to cleanse the world; to ensure that trees and grasses and myriad tiny lives would sprout and grow and flourish.

The cycle of life had begun anew, and we reconsidered the means by which we might protect it.

The Convocation decided thus: we would nurture our world until it was bursting with vitality. Then, when the time was right, we would offer some portion of its living energy to Zodiark... In return, He would restore to us those brethren whose souls had fed His strength, and together we would resume our role as stewards.

There were, however, those who disagreed with this plan. They argued that enough had been sacrificed to Zodiark─that this new world should belong to the lives newly born.

The question for them was, even if the Convocation eventually said, "OK, enough sacrificing our own to Zodiark, do they really get to unilaterally decide "Well, we'll just sacrifice others!"? Who has the right to make that call for whom? And to refuse to debate the wisdom of sacrificing the very life their comrades sacrificed themselves to beget is tantamount to turning on the foundations of their culture. They were the leaders of their culture, a culture that saw themselves as the stewards of the world, and then turned on all of it for Zodiark alone.

One question that remains open for me is, did those who sacrificed themselves to Zodiark ever expect to be restored in the first place? Did they truly sacrifice themselves to see the world reborn only for that new birth to be slaughtered on the altar of their own resurrection? And what of the new life's lack of consent in this plan?

If that was the case, I personally think they were unworthy to ever claim the mantle of the world's stewards in the first place.

[Lauront]

Being stubborn and turning a deaf ear is the behavior of someone who cannot be reasoned with at all. And regarding the French version, if the opinion of a Venat follower is not taken into account, again it is because the convocation cannot be reasoned with at all.

So it is not a stretch within anyone's imagination (especially after Emet has confirmed it!) that the convocation was tempered to Zodiark and you know took the most basic tenant of their culture--debate and discussion--just disregarded what the Venat people had to say.

Hydaelyn was summoned by Venat and company out of desperation. If at any point they thought they could take another course of action, I'm sure they would have explored that avenue first. Even the appeals to Azem for help didn't get a response. What else were they supposed to do?

And to offer another interpretation of that: it's also the behaviour of someone who has heard the points, thinks the solution is a bad idea and therefore no longer wants to discuss the matter, because they're not getting anywhere with the other side. It raises questions as to just what was this "problem" (they say their doom was not avoided - fine, but in what sense?) that they saw and what the proposed "solution" was. Summoning a Primal onto another Primal, for example, might be considered to be a very bad idea. So without knowledge of all that, and what exactly they meant by it, I demur from answering the "what else were they supposed to do?" question. I will grant that they seemed well intentioned too.

Again, I don't disagree that that could be the underlying reason behind the Convocation's refusal to hear their case (assuming it hadn't already heard it before, resulting in rifts within it in the first place that Elidibus sought to mediate.) It is more that I don't view the specific wording she uses there as that of someone who believes that discussion is futile as a result of tempering, because the main thrust of that would be that the primal has supplanted its will for theirs. I don't view the statement as one of pity, and the way their designs unfold, it is certainly rooted in pragmatic concerns - a prosperous future for the star.

Granted, they have left the wording deliberately loosey goosey in many places, probably to avoid easy prediction of what is to come, so I won't rule it out as a possibility.

[KizuyaKatogami]

My question here is what does "ancient times" have anything to do with sundered at all? This part of the debate seems moot if nobody was sundered yet. The Convocation was just pushing "sacrifice people to Zodiark" as the fix for every problem and ignoring the people who questioned it, leading Venat's faction to believe that what was supposed to be a temporary measure was now as sure to doom them as the Final Days, assuming they had even found a permanent way to stop it in the first place..

Because it was in context of the conversation. Someone said they were sacrificing all unsundered life, which is not what they were doing. As for sacrificing people to zodiark to fix every problem. It was 3 times. It wasn’t every little problem it was major problems for the first two and then the last one was in honor of those who sacrificed themselves for the fate of the star. We don’t know what the new life was like so it’s hard to interpret that entire thing. Unless Venat had some kind of information no one else knew about(which idk how she’d have that info) her assumptions were purely out of fear. This is what caused them to summon Hydaelyn and then caused the sundering, a horrific event making the world unstable.

[Anonymoose]

Because it was in context of the conversation. Someone said they were sacrificing all unsundered life, which is not what they were doing.

OK, I can see how I could miss the forest for the trees in getting in the middle of a debate about precise language rather than the plan itself, lol.

As for sacrificing people to zodiark to fix every problem. It was 3 times. It wasn’t every little problem it was major problems for the first two and then the last one was in honor of those who sacrificed themselves for the fate of the star.

Can we be confident in the word "honor" being accurate? A bunch of people sacrificed themselves to give new life a chance, and then the Convocation decided unilaterally to slaughter that life - who did not consent to this plan - to bring them back. Is that good stewardship? Is that what they died for? Is that honor? I think Venat was right to question that - to call for debate on that. And when she saw that they would not even make room for the conversation, I think she understood that something was very amiss. Their plan went against everything Amaurot stood for, even as the self-declared stewards of the entire world.

Consider that the Convocation didn't even make this plan until after 75% of the people had already been sacrificed.
What if all of this was to "save" people who didn't even want or expect to be saved under those conditions? At that cost?

If that were the case, Hydaelyn is less a concrete "horrific event" and more of a "hail mary to stop something that's already going horrifically wrong."

Also not sure what my glam has to do with anything? Dont really care what kind of "assumptions you have to make". Could say the same to you.

Also I apologize if this came off as some sort of put-down or attempt to be rude, it was intended to just be a playful nod to the correlation between your defense of the Ancients' intentions as framed by tempered Convocation and your dressing like an Ancient. There wasn't a value judgement attached to it, and there was no offense intended.

[Theodric]

Neither the Zodiark or the Hydaelyn route appeared to be perfect and without downsides, really. I wouldn't consider Hydaelyn to be the lesser of two hard choices given what happened - since everything was Sundered. We do not yet know whether it was an accident or something intentional, but at the end of the day it basically reduced the power of every single living being, separated them from their loved ones and shattered their memories. I have my doubts that such an act involved consent either, which brings us right back to the whole 'matter of perspective' angle.

There's also the added question as to what, exactly, caused the Final Days in the first place and how that played into things. If it's a malicious entity/third party...then that further complicates matters. Especially if it played into and stoked the fears of the Ancients to turn against one another. For all we know, a 'Jenova' type entity could be a missing puzzle piece.

[Anonymoose]

Neither the Zodiark or the Hydaelyn route appeared to be perfect and without downsides, really. I wouldn't consider Hydaelyn to be the lesser of two hard choices given what happened - since everything was Sundered. We do not yet know whether it was an accident or something intentional, but at the end of the day it basically reduced the power of every single living being, separated them from their loved ones and shattered their memories. I have my doubts that such an act involved consent either, which brings us right back to the whole 'matter of perspective' angle.

That's definitely a place we need more information. Venat speaks as though she knows for sure this solution is only temporary and the Convocation was still just "Hail Zodiark, He's got this down in perpetuity" about it. If the Convocation were guaranteed to keep sacrificing to Zodiark as they felt was "necessary" until the reborn world was once again lost, sundering Him at any cost was the only solution. If the Final Days were doomed to repeat if there were creation magicks to run amok at all, then sundering everyone was the only solution. Those are the two big "this was supposed to be temporary" possibilities I can think of. "Entity that can rewrite the laws of reality and corrupted the psyche of our leaders" having permanent admin permissions over the planet does sound like it will eventually bend all to its will. Hydaelyn accuses Zodiark's greatest sin of being greed.

But the Darkness coveted power, and the balance was broken. Thus was I forced to banish Him unto the distant heavens, to forever remain apart.

One thing that's causing struggle for me here is knowing that a lot of the people willing to condemn Venat for this difficult decision are the same people who thought the Warriors of Darkness's plan to murder everyone on the First (never mind the casualties on the Source) so they could reborn was pretty noble. Is that so different? The First didn't consent. Their lives and memories would have been lost. Their individual lives would have been lost.

The WoD were wrong that it was the only option, and yet people still called them noble.

Why not Venat?