6.0 Story Speculations

[Veloran]

[INDENT][I]Thy Life is a riddle, to bear rapture and sorrow
To listen, to suffer, to entrust unto tomorrow
In one fleeting moment, from the Land doth life flow
Yet in one fleeting moment, for anew it doth grow
In the same fleeting moment thou must live, die and know

Yes, a nice song written long before the reality of what Hydaelyn is and what she's done was shown, and even it is a complete non-answer. Hydaelyn created a world of fragile mortality full of illness, war, death, and a cycle of perpetual ignorance where people repeat their mistakes over and over again across lifetimes they can't remember. It may be she had a very good reason to do this, even simply to preserve the stability of the star and ensure some form of life persisted, but to simply say "It's a riddle, find your own answer and pass it down once you die" is just the height of disingenuity. That was an acceptably vague god-answer back in ARR, it no longer is because Hydaelyn traded another world for what now exists, so something with more substance than what you'd find on the back of a philosophy 101 book is to be expected.

Keep in mind that I can't detach my experiences in 1.0 from my assessment here; it inevitably colors my evaluation. Those experiences make it a lot more likely that to read into the story the implication that if you hear, "Hear, Feel, Think" and your response is "No, thank you." That's fine. You don't have to join Her cause. You don't have to listen to Her. Plenty of people walked away, ignored it, or never even realized they had it. Some fought with Her enemies. You can choose to never tell anyone you have the Echo and use it solely to cheat at poker and you'll face no consequences.

You may be forgetting here the tidbit of lore that it's Hydaelyn herself who first awakens many people's Echoes. She does this whenever an Umbral Calamity seems on the horizon, to try and make a connection with people who can become Warriors of Light and take up her cause, and if these people do something vaguely heroic she then grants them crystals of light and entrusts them as her agents in the world. Even for people who awaken their Echoes on their own time, she's constantly broadcasting her message to immediately get them predisposed towards her.

we can't help that part

We can't help it because this is the world she created.

I'm just doubful Naoki Yoshida intended that journey to be interpreted as "you spent 10 years being the suckered slave of a duplicitous false god" when in the midst of the greatest chance he had to set that narrative up, Shadowbringers,

In what way was that narrative not set up in Shadowbringers? Shadowbringers established that Hydaelyn is a false god, that she lied to you about the conflict you're fighting for her, that she's done very debatable things in the past, that darkness is not evil and light is not good, and that Warriors of Light putting their blind faith in a force that presupposes it's own righteousness may just make them nothing but useful tools.

Yes, the idea seemingly shown in the trailer of WoL turning to darkness and destroying light was subverted - So why exactly do you think the idea shown in the Endwalker trailer, with WoL standing as the goodly Paladin apparently on the moon to destroy evil, won't be subverted in it's own right? We've already been told outright that Hydaelyn and Zodiark aren't good and evil.

She was summoned to see the new life as her precious children to protect forevermore.

Is that what she was summoned for? Zodiark was the one summoned as a Primal of salvation. Seems to me that Hydaelyn's purpose isn't protecting lives, but protecting the stability of the world.

Did Hydaelyn lie to you any more than Ifrit or Garuda did when they acted as though the only narrative summoned into them was the Truth?

Primals aren't automatons. Ramuh was able to look at the situation and conclude WoL was worth entrusting the protection of the Sylphs to, same for Alexander, Louisoix gave up on his task as Phoenix, even Yotsuyu let go of her spite at the end. Why should we think that Hydaelyn truly believed what she was saying instead of lying about it? And if she does really think of herself as a true god who justly excised the covetous darkness while using her own servants (as she explicitly compares to the Ascians serving Zodiark) to enact her will, why exactly should she be treated differently than any other Primal? I'm sure every other society that's summoned one has thought it was on their sides as well.

[Anonymoose]

Yes, a nice song written long before the reality of what Hydaelyn is and what she's done was shown,

I'm thinking more "it's the lore the writers are going back to to make sense of this" - the beginning is the end, they even used the Starshower.

We can't help it because this is the world she created.

And yet the reins of history are (more or less) in the hands of man whenever nobody's kicking Her in the shins. You said yourself she only does anything when an Umbral Calamity is on the horizon. When the Ascians aren't around She just goes to sleep and leaves us be. Like, I can get that compared to the lives the Ancients led, ours seem short and cruel. They also happen to look just like the lives we humans actually live. Regardless of its origin, the world we're fighting for in Hydaelyn's name is modeled on the one we can most identify with, Earth, because almost every story we've ever been told about what it means to be alive takes place here. Even the name "Eorzea" shares the same etymological root as "Earth".

I'm willing to wait to hear Her side of the story. It's not Her fault SE didn't write one before the last time she talked to us, lol.

In what way was that narrative not set up in Shadowbringers?

I'm suggesting it didn't set up the "you have no free will and the one thing we told you was good is bad" part very well, by having all of your antagonists have understandable motivations that are ultimately irrelevant in the "they need to die" consideration while not letting you, the hero, "taint yourself" in the slightest way by consorting with real Darkness even when it made sense to do so for the greater good. Hydaelyn may be flawed but if she was truly that despicable, that was the time to start building up to the crescendo.

Seems to me that Hydaelyn's purpose isn't protecting lives, but protecting the stability of the world.

I don't disagree, while I don't think those are mutually exclusive. But if this is meant to be a report to a point I made, I would ask, "Protect the stability of the world from... [who]? Because they intend to destabilize it by... [doing what]?

Primals aren't automatons. Ramuh was able to look at the situation and conclude WoL was worth entrusting the protection of the Sylphs to, same for Alexander, Louisoix gave up on his task as Phoenix, even Yotsuyu let go of her spite at the end. Why should we think that Hydaelyn truly believed what she was saying instead of lying about it? And if she does really think of herself as a true god who justly excised the covetous darkness while using her own servants (as she explicitly compares to the Ascians serving Zodiark) to enact her will, why exactly should she be treated differently than any other Primal?

Of these examples, Ramuh is described by Square Enix as being an oddity among primals whose true nature has yet to be explained. Moreover, he was imbued by his summoners with the traits of a wise judge who makes righteous decisions, and the Ascians were shocked he assented to the Warrior of Light. Alexander was summoned to be a perfect calculator and it, too, overcame its summoners' biases and doubled down on the Warrior of Light. Meanwhile Louisoix tells you Phoenix was "no true primal", and Yotusyu's change in demeanor was suggested by Zenos to be because she tempered herself during her own summoning and then it faded upon the death of that identity.

I'm not entirely confident at this point that Hydaelyn does think of Herself as the one true god. I think anyone actually tempered by her would. Hydaelyn Herself says only that she's "all made one," whatever that means. Meanwhile Elidibus and Lahabrea called Zodiark the one true god incessantly and I'm not sure if Zodiark Himself thinks so either. It's awkward that his heart did it also logically follows vis a vis the energy symbiosis thing.

Just a minor correction here:

"Negate" was a poor choice of words, I agree. "Contain the influence of" is closer to the connotation I intended.
You're correct to stress that were never going to cancel it out. (Thanks for helping with that, Emet!)

What I mean is, while early speculations of the mechanics don't quite pan out to be entirely accurate, is it not fair to say that without our gifts, our soul would not have been strong enough to accomplish the task? That the Echo / Blessing / Champion Factor's ability to make the walls of the soul more permeable and enhances its potential for strength is what made it possible? I was going to quote G'raha but the line I want seems to have fallen out of my pocket.

[Veloran]

I'm thinking more "it's the lore the writers are going back to to make sense of this" - the beginning is the end, they even used the Starshower.

In order for a plot element to make sense of something it needs to actually make sense. Answers is relevant in some ways, but to have a resolution to Hydaelyn now, after everything written since then, we'd need an Answers 2 that sheds real light on her motivations and offers an answer which is a satisfactory reason for everything she's done.

You said yourself she only does anything when an Umbral Calamity is on the horizon.

That's just when she kicks up her game, she creates WoLs elsewhere if Tenzen and the Zodiac Braves are any indication. Krile even describes her directly as "intervening in man's affairs" until very recent history.

Like, I can get that compared to the lives the Ancients led, ours seem short and cruel. They also happen to look just like the lives we humans actually live. Regardless of its origin, the world we're fighting for in Hydaelyn's name is modeled on the one we can most identify with, Earth, because almost every story we've ever been told about what it means to be alive takes place here. Even the name "Eorzea" shares the same etymological root as "Earth".

There's a reason the world of the Ancients is described as a paradise in comparison to the current world. And there's also a reason why plenty of FF games end with defeating some godlike being that was responsible for the current state of the world the protagonists reside in, because the status quo is unhealthy or defective in some regard. And I would argue that not only is this the case in XIV, but also that Hydaelyn deserves particular scrutiny in this regard because she destroyed another world to bring this one into being.

I'm suggesting it didn't set up the "you have no free will and the one thing we told you was good is bad" part very well,

In my estimation ignorance is the furthest thing from freedom, and Hydaelyn has been keeping people ignorant of who they are and where they came from for 12,000 years.

Hydaelyn may be flawed but if she was truly that despicable, that was the time to start building up to the crescendo.

I'm not saying she's despicable, I'm saying that the idea she's a force for good has basically been dashed, we even have that from the developers directly. If you want to get aetherological about it, Hydaelyn represents stasis more than anything else, her entire motivation seems to just be keeping the world as she's created it.

I would ask, "Protect the stability of the world from... [who]? Because they intend to destabilize it by... [doing what]?

I'd say this question hasn't truly been answered yet, but personally I think she wishes to protect the stability of the world from human nature. This would explain why she sundered the world and split everyone's souls, originally leaving them in a state where they apparently couldn't even use magic, by limiting the potential of mankind the world itself couldn't be threatened with destruction.

Ramuh is described by Square Enix as being an oddity among primals whose true nature has yet to be explained. Moreover, he was imbued by his summoners with the traits of a wise judge who makes righteous decisions, and the Ascians were shocked he assented to the Warrior of Light. Alexander was summoned to be a perfect calculator and it, too, overcame its summoners' biases and doubled down on the Warrior of Light. Meanwhile Louisoix tells you Phoenix was "no true primal", and Yotusyu's change in demeanor was suggested by Zenos to be because she tempered herself during her own summoning and then it faded upon the death of that identity.

As things currently stand we have no reason to think either Ramuh or Phoenix were actually all that unusual as far as Primals go. Alexander simply gave up on it's primary summoned objective to create the best future and instead entrusted WoL with a completely unknown future (bad decision in G'raha's world), and for Yotsuyu tempering doesn't fade with the death of a Primal, so her giving up her spite at the end is still an act of agency you suggest Primals can't have.

I'm not entirely confident at this point that Hydaelyn does think of Herself as the one true god.

She certainly describes herself as something like the primordial force of Light, existing before life came to be. And "All Made One"? I would consider that a title of a god.

As it is we can only think that she either falsely believes her own hype, or she's lying.

there is panel in Rak'tika that specifically shows Zodiark and Hydaelyn together,

I would say that panel looks more like a confrontation than a coexistence. Anyway as to the part you're quoting, the more relevant time would be immediately after the Sundering, not before it.

You assume it was coercion because you literally haven't been given the answer yet.

I assume it was coercion because WoL - In their current iteration - Joined the war with answers that were either false or nonexistent. Again, I can't consider WoL free in this scenario if they're being left ignorant, that's just manipulation.