Death unto Dawn page up

[Lauront]

I just hope they have more sense than to rehash them wholesale in Pandaemonium, or indeed, through Lunar variants.

I would not be surprised if virtually all of the Primals have ancient origins, as some of them (e.g. Ramuh, Sephirot) - perhaps drawing on the Lifestream/Underworld/Aetherial Sea - seem to have a fairly good understanding of the origin of the world. Their driving imperative/concept may be what allows for it or not, e.g. Ramuh being wise. Something else they've not touched on in much depth is the Twelve, so I do wonder if the alliance or normal raids will pick up on that, as that's the other mystery besides Lake Silvertear, and we've now got enough hints to suggest they tie to the Convocation in concept at least.

With Pandaemonium, the idea may be that Lahabrea somehow returns, having been captive in Nidhogg's Eyes, his aether etc. recharged, but maybe a bit worse for wear mentally, especially after watching the Final Days play out again, maybe from his position in the Aetherial Sea. Really hope they're not baiting with his sigil and mask, but as long as they give him a good boss fight as one of the final bosses of the tiers, I'll be happy, as well as a good story tying to his ancient persona to conclude his arc, maybe going into the work he did to devise the concept for Zodiark. Wouldn't be surprised if he gets the idea of setting his re-created menagerie on the MC once he realises who they are for funzies, and at the end we get a glimpse of original Lahabrea. I could sort of see that as the context for some Overlords joining him, as the last hope to see through their plans (really, it hinges on what happens with Zodiark/Hydaelyn), but again, I'd like at least one of them which isn't antagonistic for a change now that the MC has adopted the remembrance duty from Emet/Elidibus.

New arrangement of Thunderer too, plz.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I just hope they have more sense than to rehash them wholesale in Pandaemonium, or indeed, through Lunar variants.

I would not be surprised if virtually all of the Primals have ancient origins, as some of them (e.g. Ramuh, Sephirot) - perhaps drawing on the Lifestream/Underworld/Aetherial Sea - seem to have a fairly good understanding of the origin of the world. Their driving imperative/concept may be what allows for it or not, e.g. Ramuh being wise. Something else they've not touched on in much depth is the Twelve, so I do wonder if the alliance or normal raids will pick up on that, as that's the other mystery besides Lake Silvertear, and we've now got enough hints to suggest they tie to the Convocation in concept at least.

With Pandaemonium, the idea may be that Lahabrea somehow returns, having been captive in Nidhogg's Eyes, his aether etc. recharged, but maybe a bit worse for wear mentally, especially after watching the Final Days play out again, maybe from his position in the Aetherial Sea. Really hope they're not baiting with his sigil and mask, but as long as they give him a good boss fight as one of the final bosses of the tiers, I'll be happy, as well as a good story tying to his ancient persona to conclude his arc, maybe going into the work he did to devise the concept for Zodiark. Wouldn't be surprised if he gets the idea of setting his re-created menagerie on the MC once he realises who they are for funzies, and at the end we get a glimpse of original Lahabrea. I could sort of see that as the context for some Overlords joining him, as the last hope to see through their plans (really, it hinges on what happens with Zodiark/Hydaelyn), but again, I'd like at least one of them which isn't antagonistic for a change now that the MC has adopted the remembrance duty from Emet/Elidibus.

I second this. Really hope we get a friendly ascian or two maybe as guest trust members similar to lyna and graha in ShB. We’ve had the “ascians are bad” shtick already so i really hope they keep that idea away from both the main story and Pandaemonium. It's old.

[Lauront]

Yes, and there's room to move beyond that a bit. Some of the Overlords remaining antagonistic? Fine, but I'd like at least one that isn't.

[RyuDragnier]

One of the short stories they released for Shadowbringers suggests that Ifrit may have actually originated as a creation of the Ancients and likely some of the other primals as well, considering that there's a Bismark on both the Source and the First which implies whatever being originally bore the name may have existed pre-Sundering.

I meant the Amalj'aa version of Ifrit. Ifrita was an original concept, but their version of Ifrit is born of their own conceived notions on how Ifrit looked. Meaning either their ancestors saw a firey lizard type transformed auspice, or the idea was planted into their heads.

snip

A Sand Fox auspice exists as a part of the Unreal trials and the Faux Hollows minigame.

[Vyrerus]

One of the Tales from the Shadows short stories (Ere Our Curtain Falls) suggests that Ifrit's origins tie back to Ifrita, a concept created by Lahabrea pre-Sundering that Azem used to collect and dissipate gathering fire aether so as to prevent a volcanic eruption.

As the auspices trace their origins back to the Chinese Zodiac, a salamander auspice seems... unlikely. These all come up during Heavensturn, but for those who don't know the Chinese Zodiac signs are:

• Rat
• Ox
• Tiger
• Rabbit
• Dragon
• Snake
• Horse
• Sheep
• Monkey
• Rooster
• Dog
• Pig

There's a Fat Cat that's an auspice (Senri). A weasel/ferret (Kamaitachi). A red panda (Nue). A fox(Kudagitsune). A Tanuki. An Odder Otter. These don't correspond in any way to the Chinese Zodiac. It's not something strictly adhered to at all.

[YianKutku]

There's a Fat Cat that's an auspice (Senri). A weasel/ferret (Kamaitachi). A red panda (Nue). A fox(Kudagitsune). A Tanuki. An Odder Otter. These don't correspond in any way to the Chinese Zodiac. It's not something strictly adhered to at all.

Yeah, the only requirement to becoming an auspice is living long enough ("decades beyond" their usual lifespans) to become self-aware and obtain magic powers.

It's certainly possible for a group of twelve auspices to consciously pattern themselves after the animals of the Far Eastern Zodiac (which we know exists in Hydaelyn, with the Heavensturn events), but that's a different matter entirely.

[KageTokage]

The concept of Ifrit was likely something that people kept vague memories of post-Sundering (Perhaps through tales of its battle with Azem) which eventually led to it being venerated as a god not unlike the individual who first bested it.

The Amal'jaa may have simply chosen to project some of their own qualities onto it, akin to how the Ixal reimagined Garuda as a winged goddess when the Fractal Continuum HM suggests she was originally just a commander in the Allagan army who held sway over their ancestors.

[Enkidoh]

The concept of Ifrit was likely something that people kept vague memories of post-Sundering (Perhaps through tales of its battle with Azem) which eventually led to it being venerated as a god not unlike the individual who first bested it.

The Amal'jaa may have simply chosen to project some of their own qualities onto it, akin to how the Ixal reimagined Garuda as a winged goddess when the Fractal Continuum HM suggests she was originally just a commander in the Allagan army who held sway over their ancestors.

Except the Brotherhood of Ash, the sole remaining untempered clan of amal'jaa have not been shown or stated to worship anything (only being interested in metalworking and fighting their tempered brethern), and regard Ifrit as an abomination undeserving of worship, which, if they are representative of amalj'aa society before Ifrit was first summoned, it suggests that it was entirelly the 'Paragon' (aka, an Ascian) that was behind how the Primal took form when he first taught the amal'jaa how to summon back before the Calamity (and, given what we now know about Ifrita, it's pretty clear now who the identity of said Paragon was.).

Of course it doesn't prove conclusively that is the case, but it presents a pretty compelling case that it is so.

[YianKutku]

Except the Brotherhood of Ash, the sole remaining untempered clan of amal'jaa have not been shown or stated to worship anything (only being interested in metalworking and fighting their tempered brethern), and regard Ifrit as an abomination undeserving of worship, which, if they are representative of amalj'aa society before Ifrit was first summoned, it suggests that it was entirelly the 'Paragon' (aka, an Ascian) that was behind how the Primal took form when he first taught the amal'jaa how to summon back before the Calamity (and, given what we now know about Ifrita, it's pretty clear now who the identity of said Paragon was.).

Of course it doesn't prove conclusively that is the case, but it presents a pretty compelling case that it is so.

I can't remember the exact wording for the Brotherhood of Ash's beliefs. Did they say that any version of Ifrit was a false abomination, or did they say that this version of Ifrit currently being worshipped by their tempered (and non-tempered but really impressionable) fellows was an abomination?

Mainly I'm thinking about the Vundu, who still consider Bismarck their god, but (at least after some convincing from the WoL and co) see the Bismarck currently flying around eating islands as a false version that should be defeated. Same for the Ananta and Sri Lakshmi.

[RyuDragnier]

Do it please.

I can't remember the exact wording for the Brotherhood of Ash's beliefs. Did they say that any version of Ifrit was a false abomination, or did they say that this version of Ifrit currently being worshipped by their tempered (and non-tempered but really impressionable) fellows was an abomination?

Quoting the quest NPC Hamujj Gah

We, the Amalj'aa, were once simple nomads who roamed the vast plains of Paglth'an. If any sought to impede our path, we relished the challenge to our skill at arms.

For as long as our people have existed, it has been the tradition for aging warriors to make the pilgrimage to the holy land of Zanr'ak, and there confront the specter of death. It is an honor to cast one's time-tempered soul into the sacred flames, and return one's body to ash.

But these craven whelps of Zahar'ak quaver before death's inevitability─they seek not to fortify their spirits, instead groveling before a deity for the strength they do not deserve.

I have not the words to express my disgust for the manner of this groveling, this...subjugation of the meek by contemptuous weaklings. The path to true greatness lies only in conquering those greater than oneself, and in the doing attaining mastery over one's own failings.