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  1. #151
    Player
    Vyrerus's Avatar
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    May 2014
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    The Interdimensional Rift
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    3,597
    Character
    Vicious Zvahl
    World
    Excalibur
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    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Bright-Flower View Post
    I think Ran'jit was overall handled better in the story.
    I don't think so.

    Ran'jit is exposited as being untouchable by your same allies that later go on to battle an original Ascian. It's silly precisely because what's being exposited is drastically different from what's being shown in gameplay. He also doesn't consistently use his same moves. He never uses the Mega Raiton again after the first encounter. He only seems more integrated with the plot because he has many interactions with your NPC allies. His role could basically be filled in by any bad guy the writers wanted to use, but it's easier to reuse the same guy over and over.

    I don't know why you say Zenos had no stake in the plot. Zenos drove the entire plot of 4.0. The attack on Rhalgr's Reach was his response to us destroying that prototype and killing its associated squad. He's the commander for both fronts, but leaves Doma in Yotsuyu's hands, because the imperials found Shinryu bound by Omega. He let the Doman Liberation Front grow by deciding not to kill those villagers. He had Fordola imbued with the Resonance. Just because they're not on your butt 24/7 doesn't mean a villain doesn't have stake in the plot. It just means they're a power bottom. /wink
    (3)

    (Signature portrait by Amaipetisu)

    "I thought that my invincible power would hold the world captive, leaving me in a freedom undisturbed. Thus night and day I worked at the chain with huge fires and cruel hard strokes. When at last the work was done and the links were complete and unbreakable, I found that it held me in its grip." - Rabindranath Tagore

  2. #152
    Player
    Kesey's Avatar
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    Jul 2018
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    Character
    Kesey Stryker
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrerus View Post
    I don't think so.

    Ran'jit is exposited as being untouchable by your same allies that later go on to battle an original Ascian. It's silly precisely because what's being exposited is drastically different from what's being shown in gameplay. He also doesn't consistently use his same moves. He never uses the Mega Raiton again after the first encounter. He only seems more integrated with the plot because he has many interactions with your NPC allies. His role could basically be filled in by any bad guy the writers wanted to use, but it's easier to reuse the same guy over and over.

    I don't know why you say Zenos had no stake in the plot. Zenos drove the entire plot of 4.0. The attack on Rhalgr's Reach was his response to us destroying that prototype and killing its associated squad. He's the commander for both fronts, but leaves Doma in Yotsuyu's hands, because the imperials found Shinryu bound by Omega. He let the Doman Liberation Front grow by deciding not to kill those villagers. He had Fordola imbued with the Resonance. Just because they're not on your butt 24/7 doesn't mean a villain doesn't have stake in the plot. It just means they're a power bottom. /wink
    The opposite is true. Zenos had a very hands off approach and didn't drive his narrative at all. Stormblood's narrative was driven by the characters who were constantly acting in ways to oppose the empire. Zenos just stood at the top of that structure. I'd even argue Zenos attacking Rhalgr's Reach was worst moment written for his character because it put a passivity and a "I'm better than you" attitude that plagued his character up to today.

    Ran'jit, on the other hand, was actively pursuing the Warriors of Darkness. Granted he also did not drive the narrative but was able to put stress and suspense into the narrative to be impactful toward getting the resolution.
    (2)

  3. #153
    Player
    Vyrerus's Avatar
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    May 2014
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    The Interdimensional Rift
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    3,597
    Character
    Vicious Zvahl
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Kesey View Post
    The opposite is true. Zenos had a very hands off approach and didn't drive his narrative at all. Stormblood's narrative was driven by the characters who were constantly acting in ways to oppose the empire. Zenos just stood at the top of that structure. I'd even argue Zenos attacking Rhalgr's Reach was worst moment written for his character because it put a passivity and a "I'm better than you" attitude that plagued his character up to today.

    Ran'jit, on the other hand, was actively pursuing the Warriors of Darkness. Granted he also did not drive the narrative but was able to put stress and suspense into the narrative to be impactful toward getting the resolution.
    Zenos attacks the Reach = We can't contest the Empire like this, have to go to the Far East. Narrative driven.

    Zenos refrains from killing us and Yugiri, since we lit a fire under the Domans. He further refrains from killing the Domans, allowing them to muster force and storm Doma Castle. Narrative driven.

    The thing you say plagues his character is basically the main pillar of his character.

    Ran'jit and his encounters are just punctuation marks at every villa we visit in Shadowbringers. They don't add anything other than an encounter with Ran'jit, and they are annoying. They specifically exist to have some face on our bad guys, and to create a more personal story for driving up NPC drama. Ran'jit beleaguers the narrative, and the stress from the weight he adds to it is dropped as easily as it is picked up.
    (11)

    (Signature portrait by Amaipetisu)

    "I thought that my invincible power would hold the world captive, leaving me in a freedom undisturbed. Thus night and day I worked at the chain with huge fires and cruel hard strokes. When at last the work was done and the links were complete and unbreakable, I found that it held me in its grip." - Rabindranath Tagore

  4. #154
    Player KizuyaKatogami's Avatar
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    Feb 2021
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    3,472
    Character
    Kizuya Katogami
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 81
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrerus View Post
    I thought it added up just fine. We don't actually know at what point he gained the Resonance. Even though he did, Fordola gained it too. We beat her, so it's not that big of a deal compared to his "natural" strength anyway. Also in Ala Mhigo, we get that line about, "Gather your most trusted comrades." To explain away why it's a dungeon, so we fight him with 3 talented adventurers and the WoL.

    As for beating him as Shinryu, well, mantling a primal is all well and good, but it's not any less believable than beating Thordan. Thordan was the summation of 1,000 years of piety. one of Nidhogg's Eyes, and the entire Heavensward. He also got to drink up a Source Ascian and some of the Warring Triad's power juice. Shinryu was just both of Nidhogg's eyes, Ilberd's hatred, and that swathe of the Ala Mhigan Resistance that followed him. Nevermind that the eyes lost aether by Ilberd using them at the top of Baelsar's Wall to try and kill us. Shinryu had also just come out of a subdued and weakened state, and we know from watching Garuda try and fail to temper us that when it tried to temper us along with Zenos and not only fail but have its will subsumed... it's another weakening to the primal. Plus it started out "life" sealed by Papalymo. Imagine how much stronger it could have been.
    My point is though, he beats us both times we fight him previously. We supposedly get stronger after completing bardam’s mettle and such and although we don’t know how much power he gained from the resonance, it’s pretty obvious it was a fairly big increase. Fordola and him aren’t that comparable considering yknow, he’s “special” and powerful. He should’ve beat us in ala mhigo 3 other adventurers or not considering how easily he cut down adventurers and hardened warriors in rhalgrs. It’s just very inconsistent power scaling. Ranjiit is basically the same way as well i feel. They really should just drop the whole trying to balance power scaling thing.
    (3)

  5. #155
    Player
    Kesey's Avatar
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    Jul 2018
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    Kesey Stryker
    World
    Zalera
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    Gunbreaker Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrerus View Post
    Zenos attacks the Reach = We can't contest the Empire like this, have to go to the Far East. Narrative driven.

    Zenos refrains from killing us and Yugiri, since we lit a fire under the Domans. He further refrains from killing the Domans, allowing them to muster force and storm Doma Castle. Narrative driven.

    The thing you say plagues his character is basically the main pillar of his character.

    Ran'jit and his encounters are just punctuation marks at every villa we visit in Shadowbringers. They don't add anything other than an encounter with Ran'jit, and they are annoying. They specifically exist to have some face on our bad guys, and to create a more personal story for driving up NPC drama. Ran'jit beleaguers the narrative, and the stress from the weight he adds to it is dropped as easily as it is picked up.
    I'm sorry, I didn't realize that when characters "refrain" from actions it drives the narrative... I could have sworn that characters with faces and npc drama are the cornerstones of character driven storytelling. Characters, on both sides of the story, drive the action by doing actions. Ran'jit does what Zenos cannot.

    But yeah man, Zenos yawning from the throne really helps the narrative. It's not like we've seen many threads about the failure of his character and this is the exact reason why every believes this. Stormblood would have been better for Zenos if he was shown to have been training for next encounter with the WOL and doing research that lets him mount Shinryu. Instead he implies orders and gets bored.
    (2)

  6. #156
    Player
    Lord_Umbra's Avatar
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    Jul 2017
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    162
    Character
    Umitu Umbra
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 100
    What is it Ran'jit does though in our first fight he nearly gets bopped by us they didn't establish him as true threat Zenos just walks around menacingly occasionally attacking & we get him down barely any health for a game play & story perspective we last much longer against Ran'jit then our Zenos encounter, the fact alone that Ran'jit has to use most of Alte Roites kit just to fight us shows him to be weak from the start & not much of a threat to the WoL.

    Then every other encounter with Ran'jit after he either flees like a coward after speeches on his toughness Ilh meg or he gets easily bopped by bleeding Rescue & one hit by Thancred down the pit for someone who can sense even invisible people he isn't very aware of his surroundings, then he's fought to essentially a stand still against Thancred & retreats instead of going to find us? Ran'jit should've been killed from the story at this point cause he was Thancreds villain not ours he was just an annoying mosquito for the WoL as shown by the final encounter where we bop him in like 5mins depending on Job.

    Sit on the Throne being bored what.. during launch he had few scenes in the throne room & in those he was doing things with troops wasn't until the meanwhile scenes in ShB that he's sitting around being bored, after his death he was fairly active in his scenes seeking us & then his body/black rose & his father.

    Without Zenos attack on Rhalgers we have no reason to go to Doma & the Resistance would continue the operation with us which as we saw with just the Alliance alone we probably would've lost as they almost stopped us at the Gate of the Castle & we would've had to contend with the Garlean Doman units that in MSQ we stop from joining the fight since we have sway with them but without Doma part we have none of that & we'd be most likely outmatched.

    Zenos actions constantly push the plot forward, Zenos could've killed us & Mhigan/Doman Resistances in both our first & second encounters but his character doesn't want that he doesn't want broken prey he wants people to hope & grasp for freedom with every ounce of their being to get stronger.

    Ran'jit having to pursue us and constantly failing/fleeing for most part was bad writing it served to make Ran'jit a joke then a threat.
    Zenos simple did not need to chase us. The show of power in both stories shows Zenos as a true threat he never felt need to seek us we'd seek him.
    (6)
    A system error occurred during event movement.

  7. #157
    Player
    Kesey's Avatar
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    Jul 2018
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    Kesey Stryker
    World
    Zalera
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    Gunbreaker Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra View Post
    Sit on the Throne being bored what.. during launch he had few scenes in the throne room & in those he was doing things with troops wasn't until the meanwhile scenes in ShB that he's sitting around being bored, after his death he was fairly active in his scenes seeking us & then his body/black rose & his father.
    Yes, he gets off the throne to attack Rhalgar's then returns to said throne for the rest of Stormblood. He murders people who bring him bad news and grants Fordola the resonant. All this does is prove he's a strong psycho sitting a top the power structure. But the fact that he doesn't bother to be in Doma when we're clearly setting it's liberation in motion, shows he doesn't think of us as a threat. We are not a real threat to him until we best Shinryu.

    And I understand the attack on Rhalgar's motivates the heroes to go to Doma. But Zenos just reacts that it was a waste of time, instead of we broke a sword, maybe I need to be prepared to fight them again.

    Zenos has so many wasted moments where if he did something or tried to yearn for something, he could have potentially been viewed as a good villain by the community. His character development is so lack luster and they broke it in Stormblood.
    (5)

  8. #158
    Player
    Bright-Flower's Avatar
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    Jul 2018
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    2,828
    Character
    Nyr Ardyne
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    The attack on the Reach drives the narrative, but the attack was actually Fordola's idea and she's even the one that kills Meffrid or whoever the c-list named character there was.

    Zenos doesn't really do much himself besides beat us and then leave, Fordola does more to actually drive that point. But I'll grant that maybe if Zenos hadn't been there the WOL could have repelled the attack.

    In Doma, us attacking Zenos should have been a moment that had negative consequences with us picking a fight we weren't ready for. But instead the only thing that actually comes of it is Grynewaht accidentally helps us rally the Xaela to fight the empire.
    (11)

  9. #159
    Player
    Mahoukenshi's Avatar
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    Jul 2019
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    363
    Character
    Altina Schwarzer
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra View Post
    Zenos actions constantly push the plot forward, Zenos could've killed us & Mhigan/Doman Resistances in both our first & second encounters but his character doesn't want that he doesn't want broken prey he wants people to hope & grasp for freedom with every ounce of their being to get stronger.
    No. If Zenos had killed us, the game would have been over. What could have had happened for some sappy cliché drama was the WoL injured with a unique debuff (for a the next couple solo duties) and the WoL - within their silent MC personality - being temporary despirited in what to do next. The Scions state, though, that even our presence was not enough to stop Zenos, but the so-desired "consequences" could have been driven home better with us actually being despirited and the no-name NPCs being affected by it during dialogues/cutscenes or so. Ignoring maybe a few forum outcries of how weak-willed/sissy the MC had been *lol*.

    @ Zenos: My main complaint during those segments was always how the power-level discrepancy between Zenos, the WoL and non-WoL fighters was ultimately an all-or-nothing deal. Non-WoLs were always a disappointment and waste of time and we as the player of course the sole exception with each new battle.
    (3)
    Just a proud bad-skilked player

  10. #160
    Player
    Vyrerus's Avatar
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    May 2014
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    3,597
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    Vicious Zvahl
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Bright-Flower View Post
    The attack on the Reach drives the narrative, but the attack was actually Fordola's idea and she's even the one that kills Meffrid or whoever the c-list named character there was.

    Zenos doesn't really do much himself besides beat us and then leave, Fordola does more to actually drive that point. But I'll grant that maybe if Zenos hadn't been there the WOL could have repelled the attack.

    In Doma, us attacking Zenos should have been a moment that had negative consequences with us picking a fight we weren't ready for. But instead the only thing that actually comes of it is Grynewaht accidentally helps us rally the Xaela to fight the empire.
    And who made her speak her mind to voice and take that plan into action? She kills Meffrid and then gets molly whopped by Lyse and then the WoL. Without Zenos, the tide would have turned in the Resistance's favor, since Lyse would have beaten Fordola into the dirt before she knocks out Conrad. Raubahn and his reinforcements would arrive and push the Garleans out. Casualties would still be pretty high, but the Empire would lose.

    Your Doma statement lumps and jumps about a bit. The assassination attempt on Zenos is driven by Yugiri, and the Domans overhear it. It's the final tender for the flame, though it wasn't intentional on our part. The keystone moment comes after we've just lost to Zenos again. His horn breaks, and he goes on a tirade about how he was right to let us live at Rhalgr's Reach. Then that very bold boy takes a pot shot at him while shouting, "Get away from him, you imperial dog!" If Zenos were other antagonist, he may have elected to kill all of the Domans then and there. He's Zenos though, and the unexpected resistance makes him walk away with a smile. His choice to do nothing(except be extra mean to Yotsuyu later) allows the rest of the plot to occur.

    It's only after that, that we go to Hien in the Azim Steppe, who has the idea of using the Naadam to gain the Xaelan Alliance. We secure that alliance and consummate it with the scriptwriter's time convenient Garleans showing up right on queue right after we took the Ovoo. Grynewaht didn't do jack except get his butt beat again.
    (5)

    (Signature portrait by Amaipetisu)

    "I thought that my invincible power would hold the world captive, leaving me in a freedom undisturbed. Thus night and day I worked at the chain with huge fires and cruel hard strokes. When at last the work was done and the links were complete and unbreakable, I found that it held me in its grip." - Rabindranath Tagore

  11. 03-28-2021 08:28 AM

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